C-Forum

Started Paddling Open boat about 1997 First Open boat was a Mohawk Probe 11 Learned To paddle and roll in that boat and moved up to a Ocoee, loved my Ocoee Loved the edges, Loved the Rocker.
At That Time I weighed about 170 pounds. Moved On to C1... Paddled An atom for a year or two Then Started Convertin K-1s Some Savage Creek Boat, Whiplash, Pyranha Storm, Pyranha Micro 250-Creeker. and various others...

At some point during this story I blew out My ACL (Knee) I started gettin Heavier. (About 250 Now) I've paddled very little over the last few years and Not been able to squeeze back into a C-1 (lower saddle Bigger legs) however I still love Paddling OC1 and have had a dagger prophet (hull is worn out) and an recently sold Slowvation (ovation).
My Delima is that I'm not as agressive as I once was I have no desire to run some of the hairy stuff that I use to run (kids, Business, etc.)
But My recent canoes over the last couple years have been soft chined boats (Prophet/Ovation) But Theres times when I'm on the water slopping into an eddy That I miss the Snap of the edge, The carve on the wave, the flat of the bottom lets you feel the water unlike some displacement hulled canoes.
So to put and end to this long story and ask for opinions....
I'm looking for a new canoe; something to handle my weight (250)
I'm torn Between 2 very different boats.
Mad River Outrage X and a Viper 12.
One will let me be lazy and Lathargic and One will make me learn to be a Edge Boater again.
Believe it or not I still have a solid roll, so I'm Not to worried about swimming alot, and I'm leaning hard towards the Viper.
I'm in the Southeast and about the toughest thing I'm running is the Ocoee, Tellico.
However I also enjoy drifting/Tuning up on the Hiwassee / Nantahala Rivers.
These days I'm Keeping it in the III/IV
So whatta you guys think Any Heavier guys paddling a Viper 12 and feel like you're sinkin it?
I paddled one years ago and at the time my regular boat was the Ocoee and I felt then as though it lacked the manuverability of the Ocoee but was considerbly faster in a line and tracked better.
O.K I'm done lets hear it.

I would guess the Viper 12 would be a lot wetter than the Outrage X.

I would also guess that you'll get a lot of responses recommending that you try the Esquif Zephyr (a Nitro might be another option, or, if you're a big tall guy, a Blas).

Anyway, I'm about 215 and in an Outrage, so I'd also like to hear what heavier guys think about the Viper 12.

PY.

I was as heavy as 230# paddling the Viper 12 and loved it. I also tucked in the rails a couple of inches, felt it made cross strokes easier and maybe it was faster - never could tell what it did to turning (too subtle?)

And here is the obligatory Zephyr plug - I have one and it is like being in my Viper all over again, but better. By better I mean lighter, tougher - I feel they handle the same. I'd love to try two side by side to compare the edge and turning ability. I *think* the Zephyr turns better as it is shorter. Bagged out (60"s) and with a bulkhead, it handles being swamped maybe a little better than my Viper did (pedestal).

I hopped into a Detonator the other night on our local river and found that it floated me very well (220# now). It also gave me a different perspective on how the Zephyr turns - the Detonator is definitely a lot snappier in that department, but correspondingly slower.

sbroam wrote:And here is the obligatory Zephyr plug - I have one and it is like being in my Viper all over again, but better....

shouldn't there be a IMHO in there some where !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

because InMyHumbleOpnion there's nothing about the zephyr
in the viper, and that's a good thing

the production model is lighter, i'll give you that ...

...but it definitely not as responsive, certainly not as fast, kind of
like comparing a family car to a pickup truck...you can put a lot of
this and that in both, one can simply handle the load and the other
can handle it well

the jury is out on durablilty...concerning longevity, I'd like an opinion
from the folks that can wear a paddle out in a season...it's just
another fiberglass boat, no sglass, no carbon, no kevlar... I know
it's twintex, it's something new ... but is it better ????? please
no second hand responses, i've worn out more glass canoes,
including a glass viper, than most people have paddled boats...
is there a zephyr owner, with 100 plus trips on class3-4 or better?

and a pedestal in a viper was a personal choice, there was never
standard outfitting..it was optional Team Edge in the first ones, and
later optional mohawk outfitting could be had

the question was viper or outrage?

horizongfx wrote: I miss the Snap of the edge, The carve on the wave, the flat of the bottom lets you feel the water unlike some displacement hulled canoes.

once you've gotten use to edges, you can never go back...
...you'll always wish you had them


just MHO,

The Outrage X and Viper 12 are completely different designs. The Mad River has soft chines and a shallow V hull while the Mohawk has hard chines and a flat bottom. I used to paddle a Rampage which is very similar to an Outrage X. Then I bought a Viper 12, and from that point, never thought about owning another soft-chined canoe. I was hooked on the edges. I'm now on my second Ocoee and have a third "waiting in the wings". I would like to try the new Esquif Paradigm, however.

At any rate, I think that the Viper would be a good choice for you. I've seen some pretty big boys paddling the 12's. A few years back, I was running Brown's Canyon and saw a guy who was at least 300# paddling a 12. He was playing at the bottom of Zoom Flume and flipped...rolled back up like it was nothing.

And I agree that the Zephyr would be a possibility, although I have not paddled one. It looks to be similar to a Viper.

My 2 cents worth. T.P.

The OutrageX was a good idea that was poorly executed. The Outrage is a great boat. It has been around for ever and will be for a while longer. If they would have just upped all the dimensions then the X would have had a chance. As was all they did was add a foot to the middle. No increase in rocker. The boat is fast but doesn't roll, surf, or carve worth beans. A couple of weeks ago I demoed a Nitro. Give it a try. But between the Outrage X and Viper 12 I have heard more good about the Viper 12 than I have about the Outrage X.

philcanoe wrote:

sbroam wrote:And here is the obligatory Zephyr plug - I have one and it is like being in my Viper all over again, but better....

shouldn't there be a IMHO in there some where !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

because InMyHumbleOpnion there's nothing about the zephyr
in the viper, and that's a good thing

the production model is lighter, i'll give you that ...

...but it definitely not as responsive, certainly not as fast, kind of
like comparing a family car to a pickup truck...you can put a lot of
this and that in both, one can simply handle the load and the other
can handle it well

the jury is out on durablilty...concerning longevity, I'd like an opinion
from the folks that can wear a paddle out in a season...it's just
another fiberglass boat, no sglass, no carbon, no kevlar... I know
it's twintex, it's something new ... but is it better ????? please
no second hand responses, i've worn out more glass canoes,
including a glass viper, than most people have paddled boats...
is there a zephyr owner, with 100 plus trips on class3-4 or better?

and a pedestal in a viper was a personal choice, there was never
standard outfitting..it was optional Team Edge in the first ones, and
later optional mohawk outfitting could be had

horizongfx wrote: I miss the Snap of the edge, The carve on the wave, the flat of the bottom lets you feel the water unlike some displacement hulled canoes.

once you've gotten use to edges, you can never go back...
...you'll always wish you had them


just MHO,

You are absolutely right, here is my "IMHO"! And a disclaimer - I paddled a Viper 12 almost exclusively from 94-99, then started dabbling in C-1s (still paddled the Viper occasionally until I sold it a couple of years ago). Back then I was running the Ocoee, Chattoga (3.5), French Broad, etc, pretty regularly. As time went by I paddled shorter and shorter C-1s (slower). Then we started having kids and now I'm paddling less often and not as aggressively (from moving into IVs back to III/III-). I started paddling OC-1.5 (kids) which sparked my interest in OC-1 again.

However, I disagree - there are similarities. Look at the cross section. Flat bottom, sharp chine, flair to a tuck in (not quite "tumblehome"). I think the primary and secondary stability and the transition feels very similar. I do prefer the bow of the Viper (and other Mohawk boats) as that flair does a much better job of keeping water out of the boat.

Like I said, I'd sure like to have a Viper 12 and a Zephyr side by side for a comparison. Maybe my impression of the speed is colored by having paddled shorter, slower C-boats in the intervening years. And I'll grant that it might not turn as well, but I remember the Viper 12 being a better straight ahead boat than it's shorter contemporaries, which were better at turning (i.e. the Viper 11, Ocoee). However, when I paddle this boat where I paddled the Viper, I'm making all of the same moves more easily; when I play familiar spots, it's handling at least as well and for front on surfing, better But maybe that is me, not the boat.

As for tougher - point taken, I can't speak to that confidently. This was a NOC demo (don't know how much abuse) and I've only had it on the water about 25 times. Let me get back to you in about two years. At my current rate (which does include winter paddling), that might equate to a normal person's "season"... It seems to be holding up very well, but I paddle "better" than I used to as I am dodging the rocks better and a lighter boat makes it easier to do so.

I pointed out my Viper's pedestal outfitting (which I set up) only because it results in less overall floatation than other outfitting options (bulkhead, Team Edge saddle).

Let me replace my "better" with "I really like this boat a lot, it sure reminds me of my Viper 12".

Scott

ps - now if you could get a Twintex Viper 12...

sbroam wrote:....

Scott I'm really not questioning your ability, your experience, or even
your choice of words. I've only read about how undeniably
good a Zephyr is. However I couldn't wait to get out of the one I
tried. I was really disappointed, having wanting to try it out since
seeing one of the first one's being taken on test drive down south. It
looked like it would be great, but in the real world was not to my
liking.

I was just being Devil's Advocate, as I've never seen the boat
written about with anything but praise on this site. I'm really
critical in my choice of boat, to the point of having to build my own
canoes for 10-15 years waiting for a good (shorter, quick, dry...) one.

philcanoe wrote:

sbroam wrote:....

...

I didn't take it that way and my response was to explain my perspective. Your post made me think about that. Didn't mean to sound defensive. I think it's a great boat, but, I'm not a class V hair boater or a class II newbie. And it has been a long time since I paddled a Viper 12 regularly (99).

After having been in this boat and since in a Detonator and in a Zoom not long before, I'll readily acknowledge (and should have said so in that initial post) that this is not a groundbreaking design - it is not an extreme high performance boat.

There are other boats that turn better, other boats that are drier, other boats that are faster, etc. There are better creekers and better play boats. But this one is a good compromise and makes for a great river runner. It's targetted at the intermediate market which was probably a very wise choice for Esquif to introduce a boat in a new material. And that is what I think makes the boat most appealing - the material - I hope it turns out to be as durable as advetised, meanwhile I will enjoy the weight!

IMHO -

Scott