Recommendations on an OC1

[wannabe whitewater girl]

I am looking for recomendations for a good OC1 for me. I paddle open canoe mostly on class I/II, some class II/III rivers, and am looking for something to grow my skills with...

I currently paddle a Mohawk XL13 - the boat is bombproof, but is really to big & "clunky" for me to handle well...I have tried a friend's Probe 13 and liked that reasonably well, and have had fun fooling around in MEs...even got to try out a friend's Howler (NEAT boat - I'd get trashed fast & often I suspect in that boat...for as long as it held together!)...as you can see, I've had oportunity to try a fairly limited range of boats...

Any ideas? (my budget is definately leans towards used canoes)
(btw - I also have a decent flatwater canoe, so I don't need another of those!)

Thanks

[Mr.DeadLegs]

Try an Mad River Outrage. They have been around a while so there are some on the used market. It has a more rounded chine like the XL so it should feel similar to what you have. It is lighter, shorter and will do just about everything better than the XL. After that I would look at Esquif. They have some great boats but not many are on the used market yet.


Good Luck

Trey

[BigSpencer]

Hi wannabe,
If you give us your weight(approx)...it might be easier(to not pick a ww-barge!;-).....some ww boats are better for heavier dudes...and some for lighter paddlers...

NYS has a lot of nice streams/rivers.....
Steve

[philcanoe]

get something that's not a barge...don't let the boat be the limiting factor, let it be your ability...you don't mention weight nor size, and it would not be gentlemanly to ask...but most women paddle boats too big for them...and a XL13 probably is

sounds like you probably would want something a little more manageable, not quite a whitewater play boat...something that still has hull speed, so it would be relatively narrow...but fun to paddle...is stability a concern; or are you willing to swim a bit, in order to get the skills up???

you mentioned "something to grow my skills with...", so what is your ultimate desire... paddle better (of course), paddle bigger water, paddle faster, play boat, handle something lighter (glass???), be all that I can be (join the army/navy/marines)

it's all trade offs, so I'd list (at least mentally) what I want to boat to do most, and start looking for that...since you have a flat water boat already, maybe speed is not as critical...maybe maneuverability would be tops... maybe it's dryness... maybe it is surfing…something I can load by myself (not to slight you, this is a commonrequest)…

[wannabe whitewater girl]

@ 5'5" and heavier than I ought to be (working on that)...

...however, the XL13 basically takes me for a paddle, not the other way around (kinda like a really big dog...) - and at 30" beam (that's speced - measures 32" actually), reach is a serious problem...

...I'm looking to - paddle better - gain confidence in my ability to make the move (not simply bounce thru a major blunder untouched because the boat is bomb-proof) - do some surfing - do some attainments - become comfortable running class III...am willing to swim some in order to learn, would prefere not to spend ALL my time in the water without my boat...

...whitewater playboat is more than I'm looking for - manoueverability means more to me than speed...and stability is over-rated (at least to a point!)...

...I kayak too, so how dry a boat is never even crossed my mind...
...lighter would be good, but I load the XL13 by myself, so...[/i]

[Mr.DeadLegs]

Ask Heidi about the Outrage. She was tearing up everyting she was on. 12 foot long 25" wide 5.5" rocker and 52 lbs. The other boat I would recomend would be the Esquif Zephyr but it hasn't been out long and you mentioned that you were looking at something you could buy on the used market.

[JulieKeller.com]

Hi Wannabe,

You will be amazed when you get out of that XL13 and into a more responsive boat. I started paddling solo in a Dagger Rival - which is very similar in size to the Outrage mentioned earlier in this tread. The Rival is a nice boat and I still have one. However, I mostly paddle a Dagger Phantom. It is much shorter (9'9" I think) and easier control then the Rival (12'2" I think). Both boats have been around for long enough that you should be able to find a used one.

Julie

[Nessmuk]

I second the opinions on the Outrage. It will be quite a jump up from your XL- a lot less primary stability, but good secondary stability. It really carves a turn when you lean it over.

But it will still be a lot more forgiving than a hard-chined boat (like the Ocoee or Viper).

It's very fast and has good glide, so it's a great boat for attainments (speed, IMHO, is a very underappreciated asset in a WW boat). It front surfs and side surfs surprisingly well. It's not a boat that you will grow out of in the near future... if ever.

I can't say the Outrage would be the perfect boat for you...but you really can't go wrong with one.

Another boat you might consider is the Dagger Rival. It's similar to the Outrage.

Good luck finding a used Outrage- they get picked up pretty quick! A friend of mine looked for one for a year, and finally broke down and bought a new one.

[philcanoe]

i'm with Julie, she's sounds dead on...usually is,except for choice of helmet ...

you can check the search boots feature on this site for exact sizing, but while the Outrage, Probe and other 12' canoes might be options, they are also likely to be intermediate steps in your progression... be careful of 12 foot canoes... IMHO this is where most of the really inferior canoes live...every body rushed to make'em, and as a result some really stink...remember there's a lot of 16' boats that are long gone, never to be heard from again

the Phantom at 9'9", is a good bit lighter, and relatively stable...the women I've seen in this boat, do really good...in fact this is the canoe Caroline Peterson uses (best Woman single blader I've ever boated with), and she could/can paddle anything she wants...I've paddled this boat at 175-180 lbs and it was still AOK

if you want something longer I'd look at an Ocoee at 11'2"... this canoe will definitely do all that you can do, while taking a while to outgrow



the Phantom, Ovation, and Ocoee pictured above is from Bob Foote's site: http://www.bobfoote.com/bob/tips/thephantom.htm
which has a really good discussion about the boat.

[Mr.DeadLegs]

My recomendation of an Outrage was based on a few factors. First and most important was that she was paddling I/II rivers moving to II/III. This to me says that she is an intermediate paddler. With the XL she is used to a softer chine, my concern with going to a Phantom or an Ocoee would be the harder edge. Going from an XL 13 to a Phantom or an Ocoee will most likely result in a lot of time out of the boat. I think the Outrage would give her a boat that is lighter and far more resposive without destroying her confidence by spending a lot of time swimming. As far as boat design I think the Outrage has proved itself over the years to be a boat that is well designed as well as well built. I have seen women paddling the Outrages on everything. If you had only one boat and were an intermediate paddler looking for a light boat that you can grow your skills and confidence with this is the boat. Short boats are nice, especially for tighter creeky runs, but they take more skill to paddle well and suck on flat water. Most class I/II and II/III runs have a lot of flat water. Moving a 9' boat over 4 miles of flat water in one day sucks.

[Nessmuk]

I have to disagree with Philcanoe here (and agree with Mr. Deadlegs).

While high-performance boats (Ocoee, Phantom, Zoom) are great boats for experienced paddlers, they are not great boats to learn in.
(For the record, my current boats are an Outrage, an Ocoee, and a Quake).

Getting into a boat that's way too advanced for your skill set will only lead to frustration. You'll spend more time swimming and less time paddling. I have seen two paddlers, at a little more advanced level than Wannabe, who made the jump from their Ovations and Rivals into Esquif Zooms. One went back to her Rival after a short while out of frustatration, the other started getting regularly trashed on rivers that she formerly had no problem with. She was getting trashed so often that she started to get reluctant to try moves that she would have in her more forgiving Ovation.

The way to get good is to try harder moves and push your limits; the boat itself is really secondary.

You can grow into any boat (eventually). But getting into a boat that's too advanced for your skill set will only make you reluctant to push yourself. Swimming occaisionally is part of the game, but too many swims makes for a looooong day. Remember, paddling is supposed to be FUN!, not day-long self-rescue practice.

You will learn a lot more paddling a class 3 rapid in your XL, trying to "catch every eddy and surf every wave", than you will swimming it with your Phantom/Ocoee/Zoom/... by your side.

There's a reason why they don't put trainee fighter pilots in an F-16 the first day of flight school....

If you're worried that you might grow out of an Outrage, PM Jim Michaud and ask him about the stuff he runs in his.

In other news- it's raining like heck here in NJ! I think I may need to take a sick day this week.

[angelamsig]

Sounds like a similar weight and height to me. I've had an Outrage for a couple of years and I like it very much. It's the only open boat I've had, before that I was in an Atom. The big thing I noticed about the Outrage-- it is a very, very nimble boat. I don't feel like I'm pushing a barge around which is how the Rival I tried made me feel, although otherwise it felt good. I've been in a Phantom once for about 5 seconds, too unstable for me right now. Used Outrages (the small version) are far and few between. The larger version tends to come up for sale more often. I paddle class 2-3. I could see doing class 4 in this boat if I ever manage to get more time on the river.

Angie

[Mr.DeadLegs]

There is a reason the Outrage Xs come up for sale more often. Increase in lenght without the corresponding increase in rocker. This makes for a faster boat but not one that handles or feels like the real Outrage.

[philcanoe]

If you had only one boat and were an intermediate paddler looking for a light boat that you can grow your skills and confidence with this is the boat.

I'd be leary of anyone making such a point blank, unequivocal, blanket statement. Reeks of it's my boat, and it's good, and I know better than you.

I have to disagree with Philcanoe
...
Getting into a boat that's way too advanced for your skill set will only lead to frustration.
...
If you're worried that you might grow out of an Outrage, PM Jim Michaud and ask him about the stuff he runs in his.

Cool disagree with me...but you don't know what you can do, till you try...I like for me to be the limiting factor, not the boat...also she shouldn't buy based on our/my/your likes or dislikes,she SHOULD test drive, what ever she buys...I'm merely pointing out boat's to look at, don't buy something I'd buy...large steaming pile of dog doo I wouldn't own ANY of the boats in this thread

furthermore I could care less what someone paddles...sounds like Mr. Michaud could paddle a bathtub with success, it's probably not the boat...just because Nolan still paddles a BIG boat, why should I want to

around here the resell value of an Outrage will take longer and be lower, but that's probably regional

I'd also take a good look at the Viper 11, and not the 12.

[Mr.DeadLegs]

Wish I could paddle a Outrage, but at 6'7" and 260 lbs I am a bit much for that boat. For me right now it is an Encore, probably a Nitro next and if I can fugure a way to fit in one a Toro.(sorry I like the american spelling better) I have been on top of borrowed toros and It felt fun, being in one I am sure would be better.

As far as recomending an Outrage it is purely by what I have seen on the water and women I have talked to that have them.

I paddled with Jim at the Fest, and yes he could most likely paddle most anything in anything.

The Outrage X is easy to pick apart. I had one. It was fast. I couldn't get it to roll worth a dam. Ocoees and Whitesells are the best rolling big boats I have been in. The X also never felt solid in build if that makes sense. It had the velcroed in saddle and vinyl gunnals. dam thing felt like it was loose all over. It didn't want to surf or spin. There is a reason that there are more of them on the market, and it isn't that they have made more of them.