C-Forum

I just had the notion that I may enjoy c-1 squirt boating... I'm 5'4" about 145 lbs. I'm a pretty good boater, but only in creeking and river running? Anyone have suggestions about boats and other related stuff (I'm completely oblivious to squirt equipment, but i thoroughly enjoy watching squirt boaters play around).

I'll do my best to answer impartially and informatively, and hopefully some others will chime in, too.

1) If you want to kayak, there are A LOT of great designs out there. Call PS composites and talk to them - they are great folks that can get you in to a properly cut, gorgeous boat (or steer you to what may be a good starting boat for your weight / where you will paddle

2) At your weight (which is not far from mine), a C1 squirt is difficult to find. In my humble opinion, you can not cut an Acrobat down enough to be a good downtime boat. For a cruising squirt boat, that you will be able to get down a little on powerful features, a Master cut Acrobat (like Mike W.'s, or NZ Matts) would work. But at your weight (or mine) it is not a DT machine.

So, what is? Well, you MAY be able to cut the Oxygen down enough, but that's a pretty tricky boat to paddle, if I do say so myself. At my weight it is much twitchier than the Maven.

Which leads me to my recommendations - either a Maven or Mentor (which is designed, and a mold being made...first boats should be done this July..search under 'Mentor' for images of the plug). I designed them because I couldn't get a boat cut low enough for my weight.

The downsides to them - the Maven is not the easiest boat to paddle (hence the name), though with the "new" knee width I use I found it very comfortable, and had no problem flopping around on the surface attempting to get some DT while Jim Snyder kept disappearing...in retrospect I should have cut my Maven down more...though when I built it I was 10lbs heavier. NZ Matt has the most cut down Maven to date (he's about your weight), and it can be cut down ever more.

I would actually recommend the Mentor for starting out, as it should be a more user friendly boat, and although slower, should allow for surfing and cartwheeling a bit better. Why all these 'shoulds'? A production version has yet to be tested. I'll be keeping everyone here posted, of course....

So, in short - for C1 squirts if you want to try to mystery, you have difficult to paddle or unproven, "expensive" options (Oxygen, Maven, and Mentor - no used ones out there), or you have used boats that will be fun on the surface boat you're not going to get much downtime in them.

Oh- anther EXCELLENT option, though I have yet to ever see one, is the Meltdown. I do not know of any in the US, but have heard good things DT wise about it in it's fully-cut down version. Not sure how many used ones are out there, though.

If you, or anyone else, are interested in the Mentor PM or e-mail me (links in this post) and I'll put you on a mailing list to update you as things progress, or when I'm posting images and such.

Hopefully PAC, Mike W., Huge, and LEW will see this post as well and chime in - they will have less bias than I do:)

Welcome to a new aspect to paddling regardless of what you end up hopping in to (even if it's a <gasp> kayak...)

Hmm, I learned a lot from your post, mainly because you gave some sort of idea about the squirt boat spectrum. Thanks for your input, I'll definitely keep up to date with manufacturing and such.

I should have mentioned that I'm going for a used boat and equipment... I have college to pay for (although this brings up a question of priority, I can justify buying a boat that is easily storable in small spaces such as dorms).

Keep the info coming, I love knowing stuff!

The Maven is tough to paddle. It's pretty narrow by c-boat standards. If you can get over that it's a cool boat. The Acrobat is wider, which makes it easier to handle.

I see you're in North Georgia. Are you going to the Carolina Canoe Club's 'Week of Rivers'? I'll be there for the 2nd half of the week & will have a master cut Acrobat & a full cut Maven. I want to hit the Bryson City spot sometime while I'm there. Come on to WOR & try the boats. Look for a blue GMC w/ the Maven, Acrobat & Sith.

I'm ~190lbs. & have gotten the master cut chest deep. Huge is lighter & can go head under, but he has the skills I haven't had the full cut Maven on anything good yet, but hopefully we can sink her at WOR

I'll put the week of rivers on my calender. I'd love to try this out... I may be in contact with you about said event... Thanks.

Ok, I'm going to admit the level of my ignorance here... what do you mean when you say "cut"? I thought I knew, but I don't, apparently.

Cut can be a little confusing.

Full cut = full volume, no material taken out of either the deck or the hull before seaming.

1" cut = 1/2" taken out of both deck & hull prior to seaming. This gives a total of 1" depth reduction.

Master Cut = This refers to the Acrobat. A lot of volume & length is removed prior to seaming. I've seen 3 "master cut Acrobats" & all three are a little different. The full cut Acro is 11' long. Mine is cut down to 9'9" long & a bunch of depth is gone.

Here's a link to the info on WOR: http://carolinacanoeclub.org/2007_WOR.html

Mike W. explains it well, though I'd add that the cut (1", 3/4", etc..) refers to the amount of material removed, as with some points (like the Maven) the material is removed mostly from one half before seaming.

You will also see sometimes what boats are 'cut for' - my Master Acrobat (a tiny bit bigger than Mike's) is 'low cut for 185' - A 185 lb person should have just the paddler area and far bow out of the water...the rest should be under. (An expert chop would have the entire boat under, I believe).

You'd think that 20 or 30 lbs wouldn't make a difference, but in the squirt world this is HUGE. I'm learned just how true watching Jim Snyder sink again and again on the Cheat. Yes, I know, he is a grand-master and I'm rather clueless, but the volume of the boat has to be "just right" to make mysterying easier.

In a powerful spot you should be able to mystery Mike's Acrobat. Very doubtful on the Maven though - at that volume it's more of a surface cruiser than anything else.

If you're just getting started, and on a budget, I'd look for a well-used Master Cut Acrobat similar to Mike's - you'll be able to cartwheel and get the feel of a squirt boat in a river-running sense, and may be able to get down a little (I occasionally get almost chest deep in my Acrobat, though it's more by luck than skill at this point).

You'll learn a lot about squirt boats talking to MikeW. at WOR - go, have fun, and try not to get distracted by metal flake;)

Mike,
If you ever want to go to Bryson, let me know. I've been there once (in a K1, I don't have a C1 squirt) but I would love to check it out in a C1. I used to have a mastercut Acro but sold it for a K1 b/c I'm a downtime addict but now that I have some experience under my belt I'd like to give hte Acro a try again, and the Maven. I live in Brevard, let me know if you ever want to go. It usually runs at night as far as I know. Also, if you're ever at the ocoee, Sweetcheeks below slice and dice and moonshoot is a sure bet for getting under. You can park and squirt there.
Will

Will, I'll be at Week of Rivers from Wednesday till Sunday (July 4-8 ). Hopefully one of those days (or nights) works for you. Let me know & we'll get together. You pick the spot & I'll bring the boats

I plan to take both the Maven & Acrobat.

Adam, you're just too light for your boat

You know what's a shame? There are two squirt boats in my boat house & the only metal-flake is some hand sprinkled stuff in the repairs

Adam covers a lot of material and has a lot of experience paddling many different boats, so here is my $.02

Boats are subjective. A gazillion factors come into play here but here are some big ones.
1) Weight: What Adam says is true about the lack of C1 squirt designs in your weight range, but ultimately boat volume and your weight is what makes cquirt boating what it is.
2) Individual boats are very different. Even boats with the same "cut" will end up behaving differently based on who did the cutting and how they did it. There are even progressive cuts where you will cut 1/2 inch in one place and a full inch somewhere else.
3) Water type is a big understated factor. Are you going to park n play or do you want to run the river. Something that feels very big in flatwater, will suddenly shrink the minute you start doing whitewater.
4) What do you want to do? Stern squirts? Flatwater cartwheels? Mysteries? Run rivers?

So what to do?
Paddle anything that floats (although it defeats the purpose if you are trying to mystery). The point is to try out every boat you can find in as many configurations as you can so you can find the boat/configuration that seems to work for you. The NB Potomac Armada was a great example of this. 3 Acrobats, 2 mavens, and an Oxygen (in a pear tree?). Not to mention, Sith, Pagen, XXX, Finkelmeister, X, Wheelboy, Saber, Foreplay, Viper, Atom, and all the open boats too.

I paddle an Acrobat that sits well in the water for me. I'm about 185# and the distant stern is just under water and distant bow is about 3/4" out of the water. I feel fairly confident in easy whitewater (though I was not feeling very confident doing the Lower Yough at 5' during the Armada last month). I can flatwater cartwheel, and I can mystery at a powered up downtime spot like Cowbell. But it will not access the vast majority of the spots that the mystery zombies are playing. It is a good general purpose boat, paddles like a race boat and I highly recommend it to anyone looking for that. Albeit a low volume general purpose boat.

{crazy talk}
If you want to talk kayak squirt, the Angst site has a message board here http://www.angstkayak.com/messageboard/index.html. I also squirt kayak and would be glad to talk to you about it as soon as I beat off the witchhunt that wants to burn me at the stake for speaking such blasphemy.
{/crazy talk}

Good luck in your search for Cquirt-ness.

huge

Hiya

I'm also 150ish lbs and have a Master Cut Acrobat and a Maven, although I can't really comment on the later yet since it's still in the "to be completed" list (but I get a new appartment soon with a garage that will rapidly become a workshop!). The Master Cut ACrobat will be a good squirt boat for your weight if you can find one small enough. I'm just learning to Mystery and I can get it lower-chest deep regularly. Mine was cut for around 150lbs I think - I bought it used from Cosmik Will (I think) quite some time ago.

The trick is to find a boat cut right. For me at 140lbs (I put on some weight recently - too much work, not enough boating!) I have a lot more difficulty finding the stable point in bow and stern stalls than at 150lbs. Add a bit of water in the boat and it gets easier. (Add a little more water and it sinks....)

If I lean back in the boat, it goes into an automatic stern stall - I'm not 100%, but this could be a useful technique for finding a boat the right cut for you if you aren't able to mystery yet. It should also cartwheel easily on flatwater and feel so fast (compared to a regular playboat) that initially keeping up with the cartwheels is hard.

I've tried a Meltdown once, but it was cut for about 180+lbs, so not a good comparison. Still, with the scooped decks I could squirt it and stall it in current without too much trouble. Cut down it should be pretty fun.

I'm really looking forward to trying the Maven. Even Adam says it can be unstable sometimes, and he paddles C1 downriver boats....should be fun

Cheers,
Matt