C-Forum

Who has one of these, are there any around the East/SE?

I have been K1 squirting for a couple of years now and become fairly proficient in mysteries and other squirt antics. However, it pains me to squeeze into a K1 (in many ways) and I always feel like I'm selling myself short.

The Oxygen seems like the only C1 design ever to be able to grasp the deep waters. I had a master cut Acro for a while, and the boat is to flat and planar to go down and stay there. I would love to get to try an Oxygen, and would maybe consider buying a new one if it is a capable mystery machine. Any more info would be great, and if anyone out there actually has one I'd love to see some pics other than the ones on here. Perhaps some with a little more detail. I think C1 has a lot of potential in the deepwater realm, it just hasn't been tapped. Maybe the Oxygen isn't the way to go but from what I can tell it's the first and only C1 designed with mysteries in mind.

Will

Will, You should've been at the last two NBP Armadas. This year Adam brought his. Last year both Adam & LEW had 'em.

Here's a shot of the 2 Oxygen's side by side:
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/wh20crazy/a ... 48766707/1

Here's a shot of a bunch of Cquirt's from the '06 Armada. Starting at the top we have:
Viper
Oxygen
Oxygen
Maven - full cut
Maven - LEW's cut
Maven - Sir Adam's cut
Acrobat - full cut
Acrobat - master cut
Acrobat - master cut
http://cboats.net/gallery/index.php?alb ... G_1123.JPG

Here's how an Oxygen floats 190lbs. http://cboats.net/gallery/index.php?alb ... G_1109.JPG

I'll have the full cut Maven (gray one in the photo) & the ugly, black master cut Acro at Week of Rivers from Wednesday evening through Sunday. Which day works best for you for squirtin'? I'm thinking Thursday or Friday. I've already had a request from the cruise director to have a "squirt day". You're local & probably know the spots, so I'd like to coordinate w/ you.

I don't know how to get down. Best I've ever done was chest deep. I've done that in LEW's Maven & my mc Acro. LEW's Maven got me down better than the Oxygen (same day & spot), but I think the Maven had less volume. I found the width of the Oxygen comforting after being in the Maven With the Oxygen you kind of have to forget that you know how to paddle C-1, that boomerang shape works. The lack of rocker makes it tricky to handle.

The issue, in my humble opinion Will, is your weight.

I feel the Acrobat, in dramatically cut down form, is a great squirt boat...if you're 190 or 200 plus. It may not be similar to the "expert" chops, but mysteries are doable. Mike W. and Huge, and Brian? have proven that.

I've gotten your old Acro down "low chest" deep over in Switzerland - it is definitely one of the most cut down boats (for an Acrobat) I've ever been in....but except in powerful features, I wasn't going down (part technique, part boat volume).

And therein lies the problem. Even for an Oxygen. There is still more volume than is ideal for folkls under 170 or so (even in LEWs, which is more "cut down" (I use quotes as the hull and deck are the same, it's the cockpit that is trimmed down in his...and yes, it DOES make a difference).

The Maven Mike has is too high volume for you (unless you've gained a lot of weight), but it will give you an idea of the hull speed. You'll impress us all if you can cartwheel it;)

What the Maven DOES have going for it is rocker...at my weight (155 or so) I find that I am MUCH more comfortable in it than the Oxygen. Being so flat (really...it's like a sheet of plywood on the bottom almost) any little twitch sends you off on one end or the other...which does not make trying to keep the boat level easy, to say the least....add that to a bit too much volume IMhO, and the Oxygen is fun to play with, but not something I seriously consider for myself to become more proficient (or proficient at all ) in the mystery realm.

I wish NZMatt's Maven was here...THAT boat I'd bet you could get down without a problem:)

The other boat I'm hopeful for is the Mentor. Should be vastly more stable, have better surf capability, and the ability to be cut WAY down:) . Rough math (and I mean ROUGH) has the volume displacing enough water to float 202 lbs in the "full cut" straight from the mold version.

Take out 1" (which I'm planning on for me ) and I'm estimating that is reduced by 80 lbs . We'll see if practise matches the theory or not.

The best boat I have heard of to date for mystery potential, though I've never seen one, is the Meltdown.


Good luck on your search! Hopefully we'll C you at an armada sometime...both LEW and I have Oxygens as stated, I know Gigi has one as well, so that's 3 out of the 11 in existence to our knowledge (last one was made just a few years ago, and went to Japan).

Mike,
When exactly is this week of rivers deal? I am headed to Colorado on Tuesday for some creekin' and squirtin' and will probably be back the following tuesday or wednesday. Basically, I'll be gone from May 21-May 28 or 29. Hopefully we can coordinate something. Also, there's going to be a "squirtdown" on the Ocoee on June 2. You should think about coming over for that. It's a down river event, however you could park and play at Flowmaster, Sweetcheeks, Cats, etc... if you didn't want to run the river.
will

Will
Mike and Adam pretty much covered things. I'll just state that both the O2 and Maven are twitchy boats but in different ways so it would be best to get in them and try them.
PS Composites has the mold for the O2 so if there is interest you could check there. I'm another one of the 11 will show up over time.
Finally Adam's Mentor looks to be an approach that might be worth the wait for a try.
That's my #.01 Paul C.

Will, Week of Rivers (WOR) is the week of July 4. We camp at Smokey Mt. Meadows & paddle a bunch of rivers. Somebody checks gauges every morning then the readings are anounced at the 8:30 meeting. Then folks group up & go paddle. It's "the Noli is running a steady 1700cfs who wants to go? Somebody will speak up & say "I'm leading, whoever wants to go come over here". They do that for every river in the region. It's the best reason to join the Carolina Canoe Club. Come on out. More info here: http://www.carolinacanoeclub.com/2007_WOR.html

I'll drive out on Wednesday & stay till Sunday (July 4-8 ). I plan to bring:
Maven - full cut
Acrobat - master cut
SITH! - full cut
Forplay - if I can't sell it before

I won't be able to make the squirtdown Looks like fun though...the park & sink part that is. I wouldn't even think about trying to paddle the Acro down the Ocoee

Ahh, the Oxygen. The name say's it all!
The Red O2 in Mike's photo's is Sir Adams, mine is the blue. At first glance they are the same. However, paddle them both and the difference in cut is obvious. My boat is a 3/4" cut "for 135lbs". I am not sure about the specifics, but Adams has slightly more volume somewhere. The difference is quite obvious when you paddle them, his is much more friendly (HA!! ).
The Oxygen has all the right ingredients to make it sink: zero rocker, deck scoops and very little volume except around the cockpit. The problem is that it is SOOO hard to paddle that few are willing to take it to it's real potential. The side to side assymetry also affects the thickness or depth of the boat. One side is deeper than the other. This makes it very tricky, even slightly under water.
There is something fun about paddling a boat that will do a past-vertical squirt without even taking a stroke, though? I do think that a key ingredient for paddling one (in addition to lots of skill and nerve) is the right paddle. A proper squirt paddle is a must! Regular paddles have way too much blade surface, you just end up trying to take little "baby" strokes so as not to send the boat out of control.
The Maven is very different as Adam has said. It has rocker, a flat stern deck and a slight raised "spine" along the bow deck. It is pretty narrow though, even by kayak standards. It is the width that gives everyone who gets in one, a rapid heart rate.
I liked the full cut Maven because I could actually paddle it sort of like a regular boat, though the lack of room to spread my knees was unnerving. My boat has approx. 1/4" cut in the area of the cockpit and 1/2" from the ends. We say it is "cut for 145 lbs." because that is what I weigh.
As a comparison, My O2 9' long with a maximum width of 27"
My Maven is 10' with a maximum width of 22 1/2"(yeah it's NARROW ).
Though it is longer, my Maven has less volume than my Oxygen. I'm sure that is why Mike was able to sink it and not Adam's Oxygen.
Sir Adam has put a great deal of what he has learned into the Mentor, and I it has very good potential. I can't wait to see!
LEW

Interesting. I'm definatly intrigued by the O2 as I have access to several good park and sink mystery spots. The main reason I am interested in this boat is it looks like it has some roundness to it, unlike the Acro, Maven and Mentor which seem to have large flat areas (although I havn't seen the Maven or Mentor in person). I think this is essential to good mysteries. I currently paddle an Asylum k1 and it's really round. I used to have an angst which had several flat, planar surfaces and the mystery abilities of the Asylum compared to the Angst are huge. The Asylum is a great sinker and I think the wing helps it out. I think the basic principals of K1 squirts could transfer to C1 easily but it doesn't seem like this has ever been done except with the Meltdown maybe.

Interesting thoughts...it depends on where you're looking for roundness - seams or hull shape.

Oxygen - square and rounded seams (different side to side), FLAT hull (in all directions), contoured deck

Acrobat - convex deck, convex hull, sharp chines. In terms of hull shape MUCH more rounded than Oxygen

Meltdown - contoured deck, convex hull, seams depend on cut from what I understand

Maven - flat stern contoured (slighty) bow deck, concave hull, half-round seams

Mentor - defies description;) Part of the hull is flat, part is angled up (and curves in to said angle - not a sharp transition). Deck is VERY contoured. Seams are round (at least on the plug ).

The Mentor IS a big inverted wing. We'll see how that all works out (some believe in the wing theory, others do not. I'm still working on what I believe:) ). It also has a lot of tool area (concavities in deck). Yes, the flat hull will slow it down spin-wise, but should increase comfort, and more importantly allow for lower cuts. After talking with Eric Z. and Jim S. the one common thread is "if it is low enough volume it will go down". I'm adding "and it's stable enough to keep level under water".

We'll C how it all goes!

The theories behind the Oxygen are all very good...in practise it leaves a bit to be desired (which is not to say I don't enjoy paddling it - I do...but I don't get as much out of it as I think I should). There are some boats (like the Sith) that I have no qualms about recommending certain folks purchase sight unseen. The Oxygen is not one of them. I'd really try one first, esp. before ordering new.

You may also want to try and paddle Brian's Acrobat (check the Angst board). It is even more chopped than your old one, and IIRC he's gotten some pretty epic mysteries from it.


Good luck getting down:)

Adam,
I guess I was refering to both seams and hull as far as roundness being good. Really flat hulls can be somewhat turbulent underwater I find, although all flat hulled boats I've paddled have had a fairly hard chine (Angst, Underdawg). I didn't realize the Oxygen had a super flat hull.
I went back and did a search for the Mentor though after reading your post and saw a lot of pics I hadn't seen before. I guess the original pics you put up with the plug in a shop with some spraypaint on the walls were the only one's I'd seen. The deck looks good, definatly will be able to chop that sucker down. Those "pools" should be good for getting the boat locked into the flow. I can't wait to try one, any chance of having any ready for Gauley season? I took the Aerobat there last year and it was kind of scary, but that boat has about 1.5" or rocker, haha.
Will

A question for you (I've been pondering this for a while, and have determined "more testing" is needed )...do you feel it is the flat hull, or the sharp chine that is more detrimental?

More surface area will create more drag, but a more stable boat is better....

The Mentor has more rocker than the Oxygen (which has, uh, none), but less than the Maven (Maven is 6" or so, Mentor is 4 stern, 4 and a touch bow, at least in the full cut ).

I hope to build a boat or two in July or early August, assuming the plug survives the mold making process <gulp> and will give a full, ridiculously long, detailed, report after the first few test paddles. With luck I'll be able to tempt a few other locals to hop in, too (LEW ).

I think what C.D. may not quite be getting, is the FLAT hull of the O2.
NO ROCKER AT ALL! If you put the thing on the garage floor, you can't slide a gum wrapper under either end!!!!
And Adam has hit on a very important point - getting down is one thing - staying down is another. If the instant you start under, you lose control, you will be looking for that Up-Button before your belly gets wet.
The side walls on the O2 are vertical, something like Angst boats. There is a big difference though. One side is higher than the other, and that makes the boat very tricky to keep a handle on. The flat hull makes the whole boat go down at once, if you hit it right. It is a lot to keep up with all at the same time.
LEW

Adam,
That is a good point, and I'd say that it would have to be more an effect of a hard chine than the flat hull. I guess keeping the hull round and making the edges subtle enough helps the water stay connected to the hull and not form turbulent little eddies. If you look at a Shred/Bigfoot, they aren't totally rounded, there is certainly some flatness to the hull. But, they have very subtle and smooth edges which won't disrupt the flow too much.
As far as rocker goes, I understand that the Oxygen has no rocker, but as it's been described here it is a planing hull. No rocker is definatly a plus for going down I would think because you can engage the entire boat in the same slab. Look at the new KOR/Ninja series...no rocker. This doesn't lend itself to a good river running boat, but you get used to being completly under water after a while. Usually on any squirt run, be it the upper gauley or the ocoee, I'm chest deep at least going through most rapids. And it's a hades of a lot of fun! But I see a miniscule amount of rocker as a benefit for DT. My squirt C1 experience is limited to the Acro and the Aerobat, neither of which I'd consider DT boats. However, they weren't designed with that in mind. I'm basically a catfish in a squirtboat and have little interest being anywhere other than the bottom of the river. That's why I thought the Oxygen may be a good choice, but the more I hear about it the less DT friendly it sounds. Guess I'll just have to see one sometime. The Mentor looks like it has a lot of potential though. Can't wait to try one out.
Will

Hey,

The Oxygen might work for you. I'm a little out of touch with regards to developments in C1 squirtboats and have no idea if something better in on the market now.

The problem might be finding one Is anyone still making them (I'm certainly not seeing any royalties if someone is lol)?

I used to get loads of DT in the boat, so it'll go down for sure. But whether there are more modern and better boats for that I have no idea.

its not a very stable or river runner friendly boat, thats for sure

Corran

Glad you could join our humble forum again!

PS Composites (formerly New Wave) still has the mold, but hasn't made an Oxygen in years (IIRC, the last one was 5 or more years ago, and went to Japan). At that point the consensus was there were 11 in existence...I imagine there may be a few more if you have any prototypes hanging around.

Regarding if there are any boats that are better, we're working on that . Most of us do not have your skill level, so making a boat that is more user-friendly is certainly part of the equation.