C-Forum

I attended a river OC clinic this weekend. Learned quite a bit, had fun, but now I have a few random questions.

1) I paddled a (provided/borrowed) Dagger Rival with Mike Yee outfitting. Of course the boat was set up for someone else, but after adjusting the straps and foot braces, the outfitting still hurt my knees, ankles, thighs and rear. I don't expect this type of seating to feel like a Lazy-Boy, but the way the saddle cut into my inner thighs and rear was downright painful. Is this normal? I sat in another boat set up with a Mohawk system that felt a little better, but not by much.

2) The Rival's maneuverability was a shocker after paddling my 14 foot Challenger, but I managed to do a passable job paddling it in a straight line (after a while). However, a few times while I was coming up to speed in slow pools, it started to turn towards my on-side. No amount of correction I could muster would break the turn; I could sustain it at will. Any lean (either direction) would immediately tighten the turn. This experience defies everything I thought I knew about paddling. If anything, I'd expect the boat to turn to my off side. Any ideas what the heck was happening?

3) I'd like to outfit my (old) Mohawk, but don't want to be forced into the saddle-squat position even when on lakes; I like to be able to stretch and move around. I saw an OC2 with kneeling thwarts, knee pads and thigh straps, which seems like a great compromise for a boat that'll likely never see anything above class II+. I was thinking I could drop the seat in my boat down to an angle more comfortable for kneeling, add thigh straps, beef up the knee pads and add toe blocks. I figure by the time I want a canoe with a saddle, I'll probably want a different one. Sound like a decent plan?

Thanks,

Phreon

1) I have big legs and lots of trouble with my feet going to sleep in a bad way. Feel free to adjust your saddle - raise it, lower it, if there's a pressure point somewhere, carve it off and re-shape it to fit you.

2) My guess is that you'll just have to get used to reading micro currents and using strokes in anticipation of what's going on. You're right, once it starts into a carve, it's a pain to correct; so, you'll learn micro correction before things spin out.

3) Sounds like a plan, but if you're really interest in ww, even "just class II", don't give up on the saddle yet, or consider installing a removable saddle that cinches done with webbing onto vinyl anchors.

PY.

Phreon:
I have a friend that uses a knee thwart, she runs everything. The only problem is foot-entrapment may be an issue. Just make sure you can get out of your boat upside without a problem. I have seen paddlers with knee thwarts run everything that I have. Racers prefer knee-thwarts. But work with your saddle first and who says you can't get out walk and get your feeling back. Take your time on the river its our escape from life and the rat race.

As to the outfitting; part of it will be just the adjustment. I deal with that by doing various stretches included in my normal workout. I also try to kneel on my haunches a bit while watching tv. Part is the saddle itself. If it is digging in you can round off the edges with a knife and sandpaper. But probably, the biggest factor is the height. There is a big advantage to having one's saddle lower because the center of gravity is lower. The top of my saddles is usually 7 1/2 or 8 inches from the floor of the boat. Ankle blocks will help with foot and ankle comfort.

When a canoe begins to turn a wave builds up on the side of the bow away from the turn. That wave is what we use to maintain the large inside circles that instructors often speak about. Once the bow of the boat begins to be pushed in one direction it is more difficult to turn it back with bow strokes than with stern ones. That is because when you paddle in the bow your weight tends to be more in the bow, dropping it further into the water and because to turn with the bow stroke against the wave you must lift the boat up onto the wave. It is easier to correct in the stern because the stern is not pinned by that wave. I hope you instructors were encouraging you to paddle more in the bow but when you do that this correction is more difficult.

Thwarts are fine. The first time I ran Section IV was in an ME with a thwart. (The Dog objected and kicked my butt.) However in the long run you are going to have more control over the boat with a saddle. I think you are correct though to get what makes you the most comfortable. If you get into paddling ww you will get a new boat and by then you will have figured out whether you want a saddle or not. BTW, you can learn everything you need to paddle class IV on class II water by pushing yourself. Just have a good time and enjoy the sport.

Hope to see you on the river, Chris Kelly

Hi, in reference to your questions

1) I haven't been in a boat that didn't need customized outfitting, for comfort and connection.

2) When the boat starts the on-side turn try forward stroking farther out from the boat, to an extent it can be a way to correct on the forward. Experiment with distances of stroke from the boat to the c stroke which can reach under the boat while trying to maintain a straight line. Another factor that can come into play is the length of the forward stroke, be sure you are stopping the stroke before it goes to the point of becoming a counter/correction stroke.

3) There will be trade offs depending if you stay with a seat, or go for a saddle or kneeling thwart. Safety first, then you have to answer questions of comfort, control, connection to the boat, boat responsiveness depending on outfitting, etc. Depends on the boat construction, but seats have been known to collapse and entrap, as can thwarts, straps can snag you, and a tight bulkhead can be difficult to get out of in certain pins. Good luck

For a comprehensive instructional DVD, I recommend Tom Fosters, "Solo Open Whitewater Canoeing". Contact Tom at tfwhitewater at hotmail dot com.

2) Uncontrollable turning: ChrisKelly, your answer makes perfect sense. As I started to turn onside (to the right in my case) I'd paddle harder. I'm sure this just built up the bow wave even more. I'd also dig forward with my stroke, thereby planting the bow even more. Normal power strokes produced a really nice inside turn and no amount of sweeping or stern pry would straighten the boat out. At best, I could force the boat into an outside/left turn. So the best technique to straighten out the "bow wave turn" is to unload the bow and much as possible and continue the power stroke into a stern draw, correct? I was instructed to paddle from the bow, which indeed helped me on many fronts. I also realized that my paddles are too short.

1,3) My boat is an old Mohawk Challenger, which is a downriver tripper. It rides dry, has reasonable primary and *monster* secondary stability. However, it has mild rocker @ 1.75 inches and is limited as a "play" boat. I've been able to get it into eddies, but it seems like I had to start planning my turn right before I pulled out of the driveway on my way to the put-in. Hopefully applying what I've learned will help though.

The kneeling thwart and strap combo seems attractive because I want to retain it's value as a lake boat and slow river tripper. I just can't see being able to stand 8 hours straight for days on end in a saddle; maybe that'll change as I limber up. The Challenger is my "do all" solo boat until I increase my skill level and get (deserve) a dedicated whitewater hull. I figure I'll learn to wring out every last bit of fun/performance I can and get a new boat when I'm ready or I break it.

I *will* have a Whitewater OC1 eventually; whipping that Rival around was too much fun. I'd have to make room in the basement though. Which should I sell, my tandem canoe, the Challenger or my kayak?

Thanks,

Phreon

phreon wrote:I attended a river OC clinic this weekend. Learned quite a bit, had fun, but now I have a few random questions...

2) The Rival's maneuverability was a shocker after paddling my 14 foot Challenger, but I managed to do a passable job paddling it in a straight line (after a while). However, a few times while I was coming up to speed in slow pools, it started to turn towards my on-side. No amount of correction I could muster would break the turn; I could sustain it at will. Any lean (either direction) would immediately tighten the turn. This experience defies everything I thought I knew about paddling. If anything, I'd expect the boat to turn to my off side. Any ideas what the heck was happening?

Phreon

Are you pulling the boat up to the paddle using your torso-back-thighs, or pulling the paddle through the water?

a day of private instruction at this point, may be invaluable!!!!

There is a lot of advantage to keeping one's strokes in the bow. I am correct only in a kind of antiquated way. It works but ultimately it is better if you can, as Heidi suggests, figure out a way to do it in the bow. (I was going to make a 'doing it in the stern" joke but I am way too adult for that.)

Chris Kelly

ChrisKelly wrote:There is a lot of advantage to keeping one's strokes in the bow. I am correct only in a kind of antiquated way. It works but ultimately it is better if you can, as Heidi suggests, figure out a way to do it in the bow. (I was going to make a 'doing it in the stern" joke but I am way too adult for that.)

Chris Kelly

...but as you originally said..it is sometimes easier to do in the stern...

it's really about learning to accomplish the same thing, in a variety of ways...not doing the same thing ad infinitum... sometimes one way will work, when another will not...

...but as you originally said..it is sometimes easier to do in the stern...

I thought we were going to leave these jokes alone!!!!!

I generally do it anywhere I can.....

The Dagger Rival I borrowed responded well to paddling farther forward. I tried to use combination strokes for whatever condition, but in the case of the uncontrollable turn, I was frustrated and just paddled harder. Now that I know why it what was happening ("there's a wave up there pushing me"), I'll be able to work on overcoming the effect and/or using it to my advantage. My boat with it's aft of center seems to respond to stern moves a little better than the Rival did, but now that have a little more knowledge, it's time to experiment, apply what I've learned and see what works best. Sometimes I could make my Mohawk really move, and other times it was a frustrating mess; the Rival really exaggerated my mistakes and made them easier to see. Now I understand *why* I was having difficulties. I'm an engineer, if I know the "why", the doing is so much easier.

Now that I think about it, maybe I'll take my boat to a calm local lake and really concentrate on my stroke. Mind out of the gutter...

Thanks,

Phreon

phreon wrote:2) I *will* have a Whitewater OC1 eventually; whipping that Rival around was too much fun. I'd have to make room in the basement though. Which should I sell, my tandem canoe, the Challenger or my kayak?

Don't sell--hang 'em from the ceiling. Set up a pulley system so you can get them down if you want to use them (put the boats you use infrequently up there, naturally). Boats stack well, too. Really, you can hold onto a lot of boats that way!

Deb

Deb R wrote:

phreon wrote:2) I *will* have a Whitewater OC1 eventually; whipping that Rival around was too much fun. I'd have to make room in the basement though. Which should I sell, my tandem canoe, the Challenger or my kayak?

Don't sell--hang 'em from the ceiling. Set up a pulley system so you can get them down if you want to use them (put the boats you use infrequently up there, naturally). Boats stack well, too. Really, you can hold onto a lot of boats that way!

Deb

I rent 1 floor of a two family house. The land-lady was ok with me keeping the kayak in the basement, but I'm not sure how she'll react to it giving birth to th 16 ft. tandem and 14 ft. solo I have down there, let alone a 4th boat! I would hang one of them, but the ceiling isn't that high. Right now I'm using saw horses.

I took the solo out to a lake for some after work practice. I really need to move the seat forwards about 4 inches; if I paddle with my knees resting up at the center, the boat is balanced much better. Interestingly, I tried paddling on my knees only (not squatting, upright); I could put *much* more power into my stroke and felt much improved torso rotation. Whatever I do, I think I need to outfit my boat in a way that gets my back, legs and knees in a more vertical position than they are when kneeling using the pre-installed seat. If I put a kneeling thwart in, I might actually raise it a little; the underside of the seat is currently 8.5 in. above the hull at centerline, which forces my long legs/knees (when kneeling) far in front even with them buried in the chines. I feel like I'm sitting lower/wider than in the saddle outfitted Rival I used for the clinic.

Maybe I'll cobble together some kind of temporary kneeling thwart and try it in various locations.

Thanks,

Phreon