If you're not going to race a boat- is elite or race layup stronger than standard layup or the other way around- a particular example is looking at a Vajda- and the elite just shows cross bias seam tape on the tips but two layers of seam tape on the inside--- looking at Davey Hearns website- a basic layup galasport seemed pretty reasonable- what are the advantages for a non racer to get more than the basic layup-
Bill
slalom layups
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billcanoes
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bearboater
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one word stiffness.
the lower end gala layups arent that stiff, I got an exceptionally poor one, however, an easy way to remedy this is to ask for an extra layer of carbon in the hull, and extra epoxy in your boat. I did that onto the Profi layup for my second boat, which should be arriving soon. the lower end boats are more like jello versus potato chips more breakable, less cracking, more popping( I think Tom from this forum used that anecdote once to me), they bend a little here and there, and are forgiving. but in order to really feel the boat, a stiffer layup helps, and I would ask for full seams what ever you choose to go through.
hope you find what youre looking for
-isaac
the lower end gala layups arent that stiff, I got an exceptionally poor one, however, an easy way to remedy this is to ask for an extra layer of carbon in the hull, and extra epoxy in your boat. I did that onto the Profi layup for my second boat, which should be arriving soon. the lower end boats are more like jello versus potato chips more breakable, less cracking, more popping( I think Tom from this forum used that anecdote once to me), they bend a little here and there, and are forgiving. but in order to really feel the boat, a stiffer layup helps, and I would ask for full seams what ever you choose to go through.
hope you find what youre looking for
-isaac
race boats are so fast, i bet its in the speed wing.
Stiffness and durability are, to some extent, at cross-purposes. The ultimate stiff layup - carbon-core-carbon is unusable for boating on rocky rivers. It just can't absorb impacts without fracture of the outside skin.
On the other end of the stiffness spectrum is Polyester/Nylon reinforcement. Flexible, but able to absorb lots of impact energy (given the correct resin, anyway).
Between those physical characteristics is S glass and Kevlar, maybe with a core thrown in.
For a cruiser/race compromise, there's a combination of materials, possibly different for the hull and deck.
So, the answer to your question is: It's up to you to make the choice between the stiffness-durability range.
On the other end of the stiffness spectrum is Polyester/Nylon reinforcement. Flexible, but able to absorb lots of impact energy (given the correct resin, anyway).
Between those physical characteristics is S glass and Kevlar, maybe with a core thrown in.
For a cruiser/race compromise, there's a combination of materials, possibly different for the hull and deck.
So, the answer to your question is: It's up to you to make the choice between the stiffness-durability range.
Bob P
I agree with the above comments and would add:
If you are going to race in the big stuff at Charlotte, Dickerson, ASCI McHenry MD, Wausau(big drop), etc. then the flexible layups will tag seconds onto your runs as you fight the flexing. This will be most noticeable on drops and aggressive offsets. If you are just training and cruising you will not really notice it. Also, as the boat flexs it fatigues and the carbon fibers start poking through on the flexible layup. This makes for an uncomfortable boat after some time. As Isaac suggest, add a layer to the hull of the flexible layup and this will help. I think it adds somethng like $75-100 to the cost of the boat.
It bears mentioning again that these are things you will notice if you are paddling at the upper levels of slalom racing. I have talked with many people about this. I have not had any problems with my Loco which has a flexible layup although I have experienced the flexing in drops and offsets, I just do not care. Isaac has also experienced the problems as he pushes things much harder then I do. That is what 25 additional years gets you in addition to hardcore racing ambitions.
And your weight can play a big part as well. I think bigger paddlers will have more problems with the flexible layups.
Galasport's Carbon layup seems to be pretty durable and it adds a third more to the price.
Tom
If you are going to race in the big stuff at Charlotte, Dickerson, ASCI McHenry MD, Wausau(big drop), etc. then the flexible layups will tag seconds onto your runs as you fight the flexing. This will be most noticeable on drops and aggressive offsets. If you are just training and cruising you will not really notice it. Also, as the boat flexs it fatigues and the carbon fibers start poking through on the flexible layup. This makes for an uncomfortable boat after some time. As Isaac suggest, add a layer to the hull of the flexible layup and this will help. I think it adds somethng like $75-100 to the cost of the boat.
It bears mentioning again that these are things you will notice if you are paddling at the upper levels of slalom racing. I have talked with many people about this. I have not had any problems with my Loco which has a flexible layup although I have experienced the flexing in drops and offsets, I just do not care. Isaac has also experienced the problems as he pushes things much harder then I do. That is what 25 additional years gets you in addition to hardcore racing ambitions.
And your weight can play a big part as well. I think bigger paddlers will have more problems with the flexible layups.
Galasport's Carbon layup seems to be pretty durable and it adds a third more to the price.
Tom
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billcanoes
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slalom lay up
Thanks so much for the advice- I'm checking at a used boat in a few minutes and its a racing layaup- which sounds like it will be better suited for me and my weight- Its several used old so there may be more flexing in it anyway- but I'm just getting in as a training tool- who knows- I only did slalom once and I enjoyed it....
Bill
BTW the loco was the boat I was looking for- but I may have found a used Fantome which will be much more in my price point
Bill
BTW the loco was the boat I was looking for- but I may have found a used Fantome which will be much more in my price point
I have a Vajda Lizard in the elite layup. It wasn't by choice, as I bought the boat used, but I've been extremely happy with it. The previous owner, who was a really great paddler, patched it twice on the chines because it broke, but I haven't had any trouble with durability yet (after about 5 months)--but then again, I haven't really hit anything hard with it. The rigidity of the boat is awesome though. It's incredibly responsive and light.
The other layups I'm sure are fine. I can't say I'd have bought the elite layup had I been buying the boat new. I like the sound of the flexible layup with the extra layer of carbon. I saw a brand new Vajda K-1 being paddled in CT recently, and was saw that it was the Racing Pro layup. The difference in flexibility did not seem too great between the K-1 and my C-1.
Nate
The other layups I'm sure are fine. I can't say I'd have bought the elite layup had I been buying the boat new. I like the sound of the flexible layup with the extra layer of carbon. I saw a brand new Vajda K-1 being paddled in CT recently, and was saw that it was the Racing Pro layup. The difference in flexibility did not seem too great between the K-1 and my C-1.
Nate
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bearboater
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K1s are generally stiffer due to the chines, and the narrower boat make it more of 1 rounded edge, and not 2 independant edges. that and the difference in the palcement of the foam core. vajda has a better foam core, but gala does excellent seams. its basically either or, and they both perform, neither one is more popular on the world scene... Martikan, Pfannmoller, Mincik, Fraker, all on vajda. Estanguet, Hocevar, Bell, Mazek, all on Gala boats.
-isaac
I hope you can get that one, we will have matching paint jobs then. the owner of that one, saw mine, and wrote a note saying wtf? i met him later that day at a ski hill in mt.
hope all is well
-isaac
I hope you can get that one, we will have matching paint jobs then. the owner of that one, saw mine, and wrote a note saying wtf? i met him later that day at a ski hill in mt.
hope all is well
race boats are so fast, i bet its in the speed wing.
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John Coraor
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First figure out your goals. If you're not racing, then light weight, rigidity, and high performance are not as important as durabililty. As Bob notes, boats with high amounts of carbon fiber give rigidity and lightweight, but at high cost and in exchange for brittleness.
You need to look for the layup that uses more kevlar than carbon. Galasport's "flexible" layup is probably a good example. Also, as Bob suggests, for your purposes you may want to pay extra for another layer of kevlar in the hull; the boat would be a little heavier, but probably more durable as well.
John
You need to look for the layup that uses more kevlar than carbon. Galasport's "flexible" layup is probably a good example. Also, as Bob suggests, for your purposes you may want to pay extra for another layer of kevlar in the hull; the boat would be a little heavier, but probably more durable as well.
John