C-Forum

Rather than hi-jacking "the how old are you" thread, i thought I'd start another. I've been wanting to paddle an open boat since the first time I saw one. It was five years ago and I finally started paddling OC this summer.

Why did it take so long? 1.) Canoes are darn expensive and hard to find compared to kayaks, especially in the west. A new canoe is almost twice as much as a new kayak.
2.) Hard to find anyone to learn to paddle OC/C from, especially out west. Colorado was better than Idaho.... Still haven't met too many who run the gnar one-bladed.
3.) OUTFITTING!!!! For the love of all that is holy! Who in their right mind would paddle a boat where you spend countless hours foaming and glueing and sanding in an endless cycle of suffering instead of a boat that has fully adjustable factory outfitting? No one. Which is why all open boaters are crazy (c1ers too) and most people prefer kayaking.
4.) You've got a one bladed paddle and your boat might fill up with water. Of course, I'm assuming that is why most of us think it is fun.

The over-all point of this rant is that more people would embrace the on river challenge of canoeing if it wasn't such an off river challenge to get in one in the first place.

You make many excellent points. Particularly about the cost of getting into the sport and the education involved in learning to outfit and repair canoes. The sport definitely appeals to people who like to do things the hard way, because if you didn't, you'd be in a kayak. The sport has many obstacles, including a longer learning curve for paddling with one blade rather than two.

but then isn't that why we paddle OC/C? For the challenge...

It gets back to what my paddling buddies say.. I don't harder rivers anymore just harder boats! But come to think of it I'm paddling the same rivers as I did back when. Just took me a while to get back there.

I agree we are a strange crew when it comes to outfitting but I can't beleive what some kayaker paddle - in terms of outfitting. Most factory outfitting IMHO is crap! But then that's my $.01!

As for cost - you can get into C-ing cheap. There are always boats for sale in the $300 range (good boats with life left in them). Its just that its not a "kewl" .. and a tad more difficult!

Funny thing is now some of my buddies are starting to ask to try c-boating. The Fink has a lot to do with it since it looks so sable running everything they actually think they can hop in it and give it a go! I wonder why they don't show the same interest when I'm in the Acrobat.

Paul C.

You've certainly hit the nail on the head. Unfortunately, us C-boaters have probably pounded that nail in with our heads, which is why we're all certifiable!!

All kidding aside, if we didn't enjoy a challenge, we'd all be paddling kayaks.

John

I can definitely say, as someone who just recently got into paddling whitewater that you are correct. If I had not had the early canoeing background, that I thought would help and didn't, I would have probably gotten into a kayak. If I had known how uncomfortable it was going to be kneeling for hours on end I would definitely have gotten into a kayak. But I am learning and adjusting and stretching.... alot.

Plus someone else said it better than I will but ... the class II, III rivers that are safe to learn on/in are so much more challenging in a canoe. My wife paddles a torrent and she usually seems board in rapids that I have to stay focused in. I am trying to convert her but I think she is more of I get in and go type; she doesn't want to drop the dime on a boat that she won't be able to hop in and have fun with.

But I am happy to be one of the few, the proud, the c-boaters; keeping the sport alive and having a blast doing it!

New I think they are about the same
Kayak 800-1000
WW skirt 45-100
paddle 55-430
Low end 900
High end 1530

Mad River outrage 1,149.00 bare
2 long air bags 150
outfitting 150-300
paddle 30-130

Low end 1479
High end 1729


Most of your entry level solo boats are around 1200-1500
If you watch ebay you can get the air bags for half the price
finding a use boat is tough If you do the outfiting your self and scround around you can even get that stuff cheaper.
You are talking probably a 300 -500 dollar difference over the life of the boat which also will probably last longer and is easier to repair
I have also noticed most kayakers wear drysuits and dry tops which also add to the expense

I think the main thing is a kayaker can move into a lot higher class water faster than an open boater can.
A kayaker end of his first season could be in class IV + water where as an open boater may be doing some techincal class II may be class III


I pick up a xl 13 with floatation for 300 and I have seen other for that price Dagger Genisis Outrage X for 800 with floation ( note these are boat I have seen in the last year and have long been sold)
but finding these is hard I admit but it can be done if you try hard enough

Here in the south there are a few OC1ers on the river. But they tend to set in the eddies instead of playing. Nothing like taking up 5 spaces in line I say, bumping into all those k1 you know. Anyway people don't get to see the fun of surfing a 13 ft open boat or in my case 15ft. in a wave or a whole. Most people down here just run the river and watch the k1s and that's a shame.
I do enjoy working on my boat. I tray to make all the stuff from scratch. With out any water down here I seem to work on my boats often.

....are there similar threads on yakker boards?

E.g.: Do any of you yakkers out there ever feel yakking is just too easy and too inexpensive?....

that maybe we should all go the single blade route?


(Or, how about sneakily putting such a query up on a yakker board to see what sort of responses accumulate?)

[quote="jroneil"]
I think the main thing is a kayaker can move into a lot higher class water faster than an open boater can.
A kayaker end of his first season could be in class IV + water where as an open boater may be doing some techincal class II may be class III
[/quote]

That is one thing that I find very frustrating. I would love to be paddling the Ocoee with some of the yakers I know. But I end up paddling alone or with people I don't know when they go there which is most of the time. It does give me incentive to accelerate the learning curve though! Maybe next year !

Price - I think the *perception* is that new C-boats are more expensive, but the comparison above I think makes a good point. When you see a $1,700 price that's kind of intimidating even if it includes bags, saddle, pump, etc...

Demos - not near as many around to try out, certainly not at dealers. Try to demo a Mohawk lately? If you don't know somebody with a boat you want to try...

Outfitting - yeah, factory outfitting can kind of suck, but most of it is serviceable enough to get you going. For conversions, you are pretty much on your own...

Difficulty - yep.

Now we are getting somewhere. Seems like most people who are paddling single blade started in camp or scouts or youngsters with families. I think that most people who approach paddling as a sport as adults end up in a K-1. Unfortunate. Is it because of all the playboat/rodeo hype, the videos, the image? Or is it the availability of instruction in K-1 vs single blade? Most newbies I talk to perceive that the entry level cost and availability of a canoe is much greater than a kayak especially when the used market is considered. I started at age 44 in K-1 and switched because seeing people paddle C-1 or OC-1 simply looked like magic. I actually enjoy the outfitting process but see where some would not. I'm currently refining the fit of my Finkenmeister (which set me back $1350 with a custom skirt). Is it possible to make an entry level canoe that would sell outfitted with bags for around a grand or less?

The reason you can't find a Mowhawk to demo is that they sell factory direct. Why as a dealer would you ever stock a boat that you could buy from the factory for less than what a retail shop would have to sell it for. That is fault of that company, though people still paddle mowhawks anyway. Also with so many C-boaters always wanting a used boat, why would a retail store bother w/ rentals/demos. I worked at a retail shop for 5 years and we sold a few OC1 'playboats' and honestly most people didn't bother to demo them. However a kayaker won't buy a boat unless they can demo it, then they buy it online somewhere. I do think that the cost of getting into either side of the sport (c or K) is pretty similarly priced when it really comes down to it, as noted above. I think ultimately the perception of kayaking be 'cool' is why more people own kayaks. And yes I do think it is easier to kayak than canoe. I do both and definetely prefer the C for the Challenge. I Missoula we have a kids kayaking group, but not a kids canoeing group, why, because canoeing is not as 'cool'. anyway enough w/ my rant.
B

I would probably fall into the category of sitting in an eddie and watching the play. Although I try to do it from an eddie that is out of the way of traffic.

I find that I will try to make difficult moves and surf the first half of the trip and then peter out after too many frustrating swims. That is one of the reasons that I am trying to get a roll right now. That and the fact that I am afraid I will lose my dam thumb on my right hand if it keeps getting messed up. I have cut it to the bone three times this summer trying to learn new moves or stepping up the difficulty of my lines. Those rocks in TN are sharp! It is entertaining to see what they pull off in the K-1s though.

I think the problem with an "entry level" boat is that after you've spent the $$$ on it you want an intermediate level boat the next season and that pisses your wife off (at least it would have mine). But, on the flip side; if cost were not an issue, it probably would have been a lot easier to learn the basics in beginner barge and then start playing in my Nitro. I was watching some of the rodeo footage in the video section and what those guys are doing is sick!!! Dare to dream!

I know Mohawk sells direct - but try and demo anybody else's boats. Unless you are near a big shop you're still SOL. Why would anybody stock WW OC-1s? Or C-1s (ha!)?

I think another interesting question is "Why do you paddle OC-1/C-1? Isn't it harder?" How do you answer the question? I find my answer is a hodge podge of the following:

* I like the challenge
* You sit higher and have a better view
* I like the leverage/power
* I prefer the ease of entry/exit, less anxiety about entrapment
* I started in big open canoes and the strokes just feel right
* My feet fall asleep in a kayak

None of those is a really compelling sales pitch for the way of the C...

I have spent a fair amount of time thinking about this over the last two years as I have been working with my two sons on slalom racing. One is a kayaker the other a C-Boater. Here are some observations:

1. The hype factor of Kayaking with the dynamic videos of playboating and extreme descents played a big factor in both sons getting into Kayaks at first. The one left K1 as he felt trapped in the boat; however, I suspect this was more due to the fact that I paddled a C-1.

2. The learning curve for C-1 is long and difficult. I saw in one of the earlier threads Alden speculated C-1 was 25% more difficult the K1. I think it is closer to double in difficulty, that would be 100%, especially if you have had very little experience in sports that require a large amount of agility, balance and flexibility such as skiing, skateboarding, surfing, etc. Even the big three traditional sports Baseball, Basketball and Football (yeah soccer too) would help with training the muscle groups to handle the agility, balance and flexibity; however, PE program are now almost non-existent in grade schools.

3. Most people have a strong, dominant side to them, left handed right handed. With K-1 this is dealt with by just duplicating what works on the good side to the bad side. With C-1 you have to learn something totally freaking different to a side you are naturally imbalanced towards. This kind of goes with the learning curve.


As to some of the previous points:

1. Cost is really a wash between the two. I have been buying plenty of kayaks and c-boats lately.

2. Instruction is hard to find and is expensive. Finding someone to meet on the river who will help you is kind of difficult to. This group can be very helfull in that regard.

3. I hear plenty of kayakers bleating over their overfitting not working for them. I think for both sides of the aisle it is an excuse for not being able to paddle the way you think you should be able to paddle. Reality can be tough pill to swallow. With chronic shoulder problems and age, I have had to swallow plenty of them lately. Time in boat is something both sides need lots of.

4. So why do you all put the pumps in them anyway? Anything that a sponge can't clean up..... maybe needs a little more skill development ehh???