C-Forum

I picked up a copy of Canoe and Kayak to read the article we're mentioned in (THANK You to AMollohan99 for pointing it out!), and have been pondering how to get more folks out on the water...preferably in CBoats (first, I'll disagree that "canoeing" is harder than "kayaking", at least up to class II or III, but anyway...). We have over 1200 registered members, and a lot more "lurkers" (and we're pleased to have you here, too...I "lurk" on a lot of websites myself). We're averaging 1.1 - 1.3 million hits a month, with 60,000-120,000 unique visits a month (I'm sure I'm 30 of those...one per day...even if I check the site more than once a day).

So, there ARE a good amount of "us" out there....but how to get more folks out? The annual North Branch of the Potomac seems to work well, as well as "It ain't Louie Fest" last year, not to mention NZMatt's Swiss Armada...and other's popping up around the globe.

But most folks already have been boating for a bit. So how can we get more people started? I know that anecdotally most of us seem to have picked up boating either growing up with our parents at one point or another, or in our early 20's, for various reasons.

How CAN we make CBoating more accessible...and more interesting.

My only thought so far is to keep sharing our enthusiasm with all who will listen...some will get excited and want to join in...most will put us in the "special people" category....

Thoughts? Ideas?

The chamber of commerce here does a mild "adventure" thing every couple of years. The head of the city's recreation dept. usually calls me & wants to borrow boats & have a safety boater. We just go about for an hour or so on the lake. The last time I did it I took the Viper. There was an odd number of people so I got lucky. I got a lot of questions about the "kayak". I corrected them & explained the differences. They think stern-squirts & rolls are amazing. Then I tell 'em about whitewater I offered & gave my contact info to the ones who were interested, but they don't show up at the river.

Today as I unloaded at the river a couple asked if it was relaxing. I explained that it can be as relaxing or as hard a workout as you want. That's just one of the awesome things about paddling. You can just go goof off on the lake, run big whitewater, race or anything inbetween.

If you've got kids, take them paddling. Take their freinds paddling too. Just keep talking it up & help folks get on the water when you can.

We are involved with two YMCA programs - the Adventure Guides (age 5-9) and Trailblazers (9-14) - and we work in canoeing whenever we can. With the younger folks we have two camp outs per year near a pong and I bring a trailer load of canoes - I have done an instructional program a couple of times. With the older folks we do flat water canoe trips about twice a year. We also go rafting about once a year and I'll run one of my kids along in a canoe to show them how to really have fun.

Our church youth group goes canoeing about once a year; we also have hosted canoe trips for area youth gatherings.

The University of South Carolina used to have a continuing education course in canoeing that introduced a lot of folks to whitewater in a canoe, but since the professor (Peter Werner) who taught that retired, it is no more... They still have a small fleet of Mohawk XLs, though...

A few kayakers at the river have tried my boats out, but usually not for more than a few minutes. I did convert one guys Amp and I heard he took it down the Nanty; another paddled one of mine down the same river and did alright. The general impression from them is - "yeah, that's cool and you make it look easy, but it's too hard to loop/wheel/blunt/split like I can in my boat in this little feature over here." A couple of the more accomplished boaters (the kind of folks who could paddle a tree stump with style) have taken open boats down section IV Chattooga, but they're not exactly converting to the way of the C...

Most folks see canoeing as a way to fish of camp, but not something to seriously paddle whitewater in. I'm not sure how to change that perception. Whitewater in a C-1 or OC-1 seems to appeal to a particular sort of person maybe this is about finding those folks with that gene.

sbroam wrote:Whitewater in a C-1 or OC-1 seems to appeal to a particular sort of person maybe this is about finding those folks with that gene.

I think this is about right. I worked several summers as a mountain bike mechanic at an outdoors store. Every one I worked with was a 'yakker, and it held zero appeal to me whatsoever. I paddled flatwater in one of the shop's kevar Bells whenever I got the chance. Then one Potomac Fest weekend, some guy drove up with an Occoee tied to the roll cage of his Jeep (I still don't know who). But I just remember looking at that boat on dry land, and just sensing its singularity of purpose. It was about the neatest thing I had ever seen. It was a year later that I found my Skeeter and started trying whitewater, but I think that day was the tipping point, and my attraction was innate.

A few observations about the problem in general:

Any idiot can find professional kayak lessons, but there is a dearth of professional whitewater canoe instruction. I tried to teach myself for a couple of summers, and got nowhere. Most of the canoeists I know learned through informal apprenticeships, myself included.

The really cool thing, however, is that every c-boater I run into on the river is excited to see someone else counter-cultural,and is excited to talk shop. Everyone seems to be willing to exchange their ideas, and I have learned a lot this way. Wheras the kayak community is pretty stratified, and takes a glut of newcomers for granted, I'm always impressed by the solidarity of canoeists. We may look at the pods like they're dirt , but we treat each other pretty well. When the old hands see someone new who "has the bug" they're pretty good at coaxing them along - leading trips, loaning boats, offering advice, and cleaning up the carnage

I look forward to accumulating both the experience to teach, and a garage full of boats for loan a la Not Elvis, 'cause folks have been pretty decent to me so far.

about 1/4 of my paddling friends are C-1 or open boaters and the rest are yakkers. Over the last couple of years, I've been seeing some of the kayakers get interested in open boats. Most of them are interested in the fact that they can have an almost equal amount of fun paddling class II+ or III in an open boat as they do when they're paddling the steeps in a kayak, but they don't have to wait for the kind of rain event that gets the class IV and V creeks up. I've been trying to encourage that philosophy and convert the darksiders. None of them are going to go strictly single blade but some of em are willing to at least become BI-BOATERS.

From the "How Old are You" thread it seems that most folks that got started early did so with families, scouts, or summer camps. A common denominator was having boats and instruction available at the same place and time to sample and learn and get hooked without having to risk the start up investment just to try out a canoe. Most paddling clubs I am familiar with do an excelent job of promoting the sport through instruction, but I don't know of any that maintain an instructional fleet of either K-1's or OC-1's. Many paddling retailers in the southeast have "demo days" but sadly OC-1's are poorly represented.

I think that with C1 Freetsyle being more dynamic than it has ever been we may start to see more people becoming intrested in C1 paddling. Most younger kids seem to turn to kayaking because it is more 'extreme' and 'hip' than canoeing, not that C boating isn't either of these. Definetley the lack of qualified or good canoe instructors (qualified doesn't make a good instructor) will cause people to turn to kayaking because of the availability of lessons. More of the C boaters should look into becoming instructors, those of us that already instruct should try to 'sell' it more. As canoes become more advanced, the limits of canoes will lessen and more 'gnarly bros' may get into canoeing. As it does seem most of the current C population is aging they need to get children involved at an early age. I don't have kids but if I did I would love to see my children canoe. Honestly though, do we really want canoeing to be as big as kayaking, it might take some of the mystique out of canoeing. Not that I wouldn't love to see more people canoeing. The other way to get more people into canoeing is to get them out of the Cheap Wal Mart boats and into nicer boats, granted A boat is better than NO boat., it makes a big difference paddling a Kevlar anything compared to a Coleman.
Thats just my O pinion
B

Instruction is actually a point where things are a bit messed up when you look at canoeing, at least here in Ontario.

If I am a kayaker (which is governed by Whitewater Ontario), I can take a 2-day course that costs, as far as I know ~$250 and become a moving water instructor for intro courses (class 1-2), once I have documented that I jhave instructede for 16 hours16 . After taking another 16 hour course (again combined with 16 hours of instructing) I can become an advanced whitewater instructor.

If I am a canoer, which is governed by another body, the Ontario Recreational Canoe Association (ORCA), and wish to become a Moving Water Instructor, I have to take a 9 day course at a cost of over $1000!

C1 instructor certification ... there is no such thing ...

I would like to instruct once in a while, but I am not gonna spend a full week of my scarce vacation days and spend more than a grand on it.

I would however do it, if I could slowly work my way to get there by taking a weekend course here and there and by instructing a few weekends a year.

A lot of the 'instruction' iis therefore done on an informal level, by the way of the more skilled and experienced paddlers giving pointers to the newer or less killed ones during weekend and/or day trips.

martin a.k.a. the great gonzo!

Adam:

If you want to have the largest impact on the most number of people for the longest time, then you need to go after youth.

C-boating in the U.S. is facing the same kind of challenges faced currently by slalom racing - there are less and less people involved in the sport (more and more of whom have grey hair) and, with a few notable exceptions, appropriate equipment is getting harder & harder to find as the number of U.S. manufacturers dwindle. In both cases, the best answer is to attract young people into the sport. Encourage families, seek out youth groups, provide youth oriented instruction & coaching. Every recruit secured at a young age is potentially a lifelong paddler.

The article to which you referred noted that canoeing is going strong in Canada, while dwindling in the U.S. It might be interesting to explore why that difference has occured.

John

I haven't read the Canoe & Kayak article, but as someone who works in an outdoors store in southwestern Ontario I can tell you that canoe retail sales are certainly down. Recreational and day-touring kayak sales are way up, but for this coming year I believe we ordered only 4 canoes.
I think people are so busy that they want something that they can use for day trips with little instruction or frustration; 10-14 foot kayaks 25-30 inches wide fit that bill.
That said, I started late in paddling and am trying to get my skills up so that I can teach my two young boys, with the end goal of spending a month on some remote river sometime, so I guess I agree with the "get 'em when they are young" plan.

Everything revolves around indoctrination

Mike

I give (yes for free) 1 or 2 White water level II certifications (5 days courses each) every spring through our canoe club(non profit organization).

Here in the Gatineau/Ottawa region, we had to double our courses this year due to lovely demand (1st class of 26 had 19 young single ladies ...I did wear shades so not to get in trouble with my spouse, who is an instructor also)

Our canoe club is healthier then ever, we see more and more open boats at the put ins and on roof racks.

I think to increase volume of users we have to focus on our strenghts. We are seen by most WW enthousiast as odd balls at best due to the poor performance of our boats vs Kayerks (no smelling pistakes in there, I did write ka Yerks !, pronounced with disgust). Then lets focus on this.

1 - Capacity to carry gear is a definite one. The tripping back ground that got us in to paddling has to attract to the nature lovers. And from where I'm from, you need alot of room for those multi day trips away from it all.(emphasize on AWAY).

2 - Respect of others and nature : They come together and generally speaking, we are alot closer to these values then the Yerks !

3 - Lady once told me she chose C1 over K1 cause she found they were so more SEXY then Kayak .(Hey, what ever does it !).

4 - The non competitive attitude Canoes have over an eddy full of Testosterone in K1's. We're in for the FUN(most of us are anyways) not showing off in front of a crowd !
Notice how we'll cheer a lady doing a flat spin on a small wave while the K1's won't even notice, or pay attention.

That's all for now, anyways lunch is over !

Good thread

Gaétan

I belong to a canoe club here in NJ and have just been elected a governing member. One of the things I plan on making noise about is the lack of "youth" in our membership. Yes, the majority of those in the club paddling canoes have gray hair. Joining with a family membership, I have tried to get both of my kids (17 yr. old son and 13 yr. old daughter) interested. The big complaint I get when I take them on club trips is there's no one on these excursions their own age, that they don't want to paddle with "old people". How to change that? Our club runs a two weekend intro to paddling course in June, but it always seems the majority who come are rarely seen on the river again. Certainly the cost of investing in the equipment (and where to store it) is an issue, as is time involved (usually most of a given Saturday or Sunday) which takes away from Little League, soccer, etc. There's just so much available to kids these days. And if you were a kid, where would you rather be - at the mall with your friends or paddling with old people? We've begun reaching out to youth groups, scouts, etc. but the question is - once they've nibbled at the bait, how do we keep them hooked?

In addition to summer camps, converting kayakers, and offering gear and lessons, here's some thoughts:

Offer gear and lessons through organized clubs or retailers, and start with the basics, so we reach more than our close circles. I think we need to be willing to teach people to canoe, not just ww canoe. Have club members do a demo day and gear swap. Do it on an annual schedule so people can hear about it and plan for it.

If your city doesn't have a strong paddling community, help build one by organizing an event. Next September near Vancouver I hope to have a 1st annual beginner-friendly ww slalom race just for open boats!

Promote these events by advertising them, and by doing media for them - write something for the papers or outdoor magazines, invite the local cable network.

Target likely places such as university and colleges with outdoor programs.

A problem we have in BC is that lots of people who come here from the east used to canoe a lot, but with the change of landscape they don't think of ww canoeing, and it competes with other mountain activities - so we need to make it a more visible alternative and let them know it's an option.

In addition to crashing kayaking festivals, we should also market ourselves at telemark festivals and backcountry-skiing clubs and magazines!

PY.

vin wrote: The big complaint I get when I take them on club trips is there's no one on these excursions their own age, that they don't want to paddle with "old people". How to change that?

... once they've nibbled at the bait, how do we keep them hooked?

We have famlily outings, focussed on FAMILY. Where a few adults might stay at camp site with the younger ones, and older kids get to paddle with their parents. Having a few kids in the other boats does keep them interested. We play games in the boats.
Bring the kids along in multi day trips. Mine loves it, even if he's the only child. But we have so many funny stupid games that he never gets bored.

I've ran Class II-III with him in my big Genesis since he was 11 months old. Been upping his ante since. He's now 7, ran his 1st Class III-IV with me in our Blast this summer. He can't wait to get his Splash(Al you'll be hearing from me soon !) And loves everything outdoors related.

I guess to summarize this, exposure with the right environnement (Temp of water and air, weather ) is key.

We're told by older friends who have wen't through this already that : ''at 1st they don't have the choice, they follow mom and dad. When they're teens they'll usually rebel against it and stop for a few years. But all of them got back into OC when they got older.''

Once you've tasted it, you'll get back into it !

Good Luck !

SOUND GOOD