twintex hulls and carbon paddle shafts
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laughing water
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twintex hulls and carbon paddle shafts
I bought an Esquif Zepher this spring and am very happy with it. At the same time I bought a new carbon bandit (paddle),and like it just fine. I had used 54" paddles for years but was talked into a longer paddle by someone I consider a much better boater than myself. He recomended a 60". Did that for a while, then cut it down to a 58". I DO like that. What I've found was that after only 4 months of use the paddle shaft was starting to wear badly where it rubs the hull. It actually wore right through the black (carbon?) layer down into the white core of the shaft. This was a shock. I've paddled Royalex boats for years and never had this happen to a paddle before. I put a layer of Epoxy resin on the paddle shaft at the wear point and it has kept it in check for now. I know I'm not your average paddler. I paddle up river more than down, 2 or 3 times a week for 6 to 8 hrs at a time. I do a lot of attaining on class I and II water. This means more strokes per hour probably and strokes in closer to the boat. I think the main culprit though is the pitch stroke, especially with the longer shaft. I rub the side of the hull with the shaft pretty much right next to, and right behind my hips. Since noticing this I try to keep the shaft away from the hull just a little bit, but what's the deal? Has anyone else experienced this? I'm not as worried about the wear on the paddle shaft as much as the wear on the side of my boat. Is it a Twintex v/s carbon fiber thing? I'm also curious what Esquif thinks/knows about this. Thanks, Jim
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John Coraor
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Carbon fiber is not particularly abrasion resistant as far as fiber-reinforced plastics (FRP or composite) go. However, I'm not familiar enough with the abrasion characteristics of the plastic used in Twintex (as opposed to the resin used in your Bandit) to comment on whether you are likely to abrade the boat severely. You basically have two options - either adjust your paddling style so that you don't rub the paddle on the boat as regularly as you do now or reinforce the throat and lower shaft of the paddle - and possibly the wear point on the side of the canoe if that appears to be developing as an additional problem. Of course, you could take both approaches as well. I wouldn't count of your coating of epoxy on the paddle shaft to halt wear for long. You might also find that the loss of carbon fiber at that point has also weakened the shaft and made it vulnerable to breaking at that point, unless it is reinforced again.
Dynel is the fabric of choice for maximum abrasion resistance in FRP/composite layups. You can purchase Dynel from www.sweetcomposites.com in either flat cloth or as a hollow sleeve designed primarily for use on paddle shafts. I have added Dynel sleeves aftermarket to many an un-reinforced paddle shaft to forestall the precise problem that you've encountered.
Typically you'll want to start the sleeve as far down on the throat as you can stretch it to fit and continue it up the shaft until well clear of the wear point, which will vary depending upon your boat (e.g. much higher on an OC-1 paddle to protect against rubbing the gunwale, than on a C-1 paddle). When reinforcing a wood C-1 paddle, I typically leave a long tail on the lower end of the sleeve where I have cut away 2/3 of it on one side. This tail is used to extend the Dynel down from the throat along the outside edge of the blade to protect against wear on the blade edge when I scrape it under the bilge during a J-stroke.
It is sometimes possible to stretch the sleeve enough to work it over a small T-grip without having to remove it (it may be worth a try, anyway), but you may have to remove the grip again in order to get the sleeve on the shaft. Alternatively, you could go with the flat Dynel, possibly even limiting the repair to just the worn area (plus a little overlap onto the surrounding carbon fiber).
Remember that you will first need to sand thoroughly the entire area that is going to be resined when you add the dynel. Also, unlike fiberglass, dynel does not become clear when wetted out with resin. It will stay milky white during wet-out and after curing. If you don't like this look, then don't use dynel. Dynel sleeves soak up a ton of resin and the weave tends to expand when wet out. The sleeve also has a tendency to curl up along the edges, making it harder to blend the edge into the rest of the non-reinforced paddle. In order to cope with this you should consider using peel-ply or simply an outside overlay of thin clear or translucent plastic (cut-up trash bags) to smooth out the layup and work any air bubbles out beyond the edges of the reinforcement. This can be very fussy work, often done just at the point when your resin decides to "go off" (begins to gel, or set-up). You might want to "waste" some sleeve by doing a practice layup on an old broomstick or a piece of wood dowel first in order to get the hang of it.
You could, of course, use carbon fiber reinforcement to maintain the sleek black look of your paddle. However, it will likely wear just as fast as the original layup unless you change your paddling style enough to eliminate the wear. If you choose this option for aesthetic reasons, then at least increase the number of layers of carbon fiber to better ensure that it won't wear through as quickly this time.
After the basic layup is complete, you'll probably need to sand away any rough edges and bumps in the layup. For a better-looking repair, you can also paint a final layer of epoxy resin over the repair after sanding.
John
Dynel is the fabric of choice for maximum abrasion resistance in FRP/composite layups. You can purchase Dynel from www.sweetcomposites.com in either flat cloth or as a hollow sleeve designed primarily for use on paddle shafts. I have added Dynel sleeves aftermarket to many an un-reinforced paddle shaft to forestall the precise problem that you've encountered.
Typically you'll want to start the sleeve as far down on the throat as you can stretch it to fit and continue it up the shaft until well clear of the wear point, which will vary depending upon your boat (e.g. much higher on an OC-1 paddle to protect against rubbing the gunwale, than on a C-1 paddle). When reinforcing a wood C-1 paddle, I typically leave a long tail on the lower end of the sleeve where I have cut away 2/3 of it on one side. This tail is used to extend the Dynel down from the throat along the outside edge of the blade to protect against wear on the blade edge when I scrape it under the bilge during a J-stroke.
It is sometimes possible to stretch the sleeve enough to work it over a small T-grip without having to remove it (it may be worth a try, anyway), but you may have to remove the grip again in order to get the sleeve on the shaft. Alternatively, you could go with the flat Dynel, possibly even limiting the repair to just the worn area (plus a little overlap onto the surrounding carbon fiber).
Remember that you will first need to sand thoroughly the entire area that is going to be resined when you add the dynel. Also, unlike fiberglass, dynel does not become clear when wetted out with resin. It will stay milky white during wet-out and after curing. If you don't like this look, then don't use dynel. Dynel sleeves soak up a ton of resin and the weave tends to expand when wet out. The sleeve also has a tendency to curl up along the edges, making it harder to blend the edge into the rest of the non-reinforced paddle. In order to cope with this you should consider using peel-ply or simply an outside overlay of thin clear or translucent plastic (cut-up trash bags) to smooth out the layup and work any air bubbles out beyond the edges of the reinforcement. This can be very fussy work, often done just at the point when your resin decides to "go off" (begins to gel, or set-up). You might want to "waste" some sleeve by doing a practice layup on an old broomstick or a piece of wood dowel first in order to get the hang of it.
You could, of course, use carbon fiber reinforcement to maintain the sleek black look of your paddle. However, it will likely wear just as fast as the original layup unless you change your paddling style enough to eliminate the wear. If you choose this option for aesthetic reasons, then at least increase the number of layers of carbon fiber to better ensure that it won't wear through as quickly this time.
After the basic layup is complete, you'll probably need to sand away any rough edges and bumps in the layup. For a better-looking repair, you can also paint a final layer of epoxy resin over the repair after sanding.
John
I want to add a caution to John Coraor's advice about adding a Dynel sleeve.
Specifically, whether and how much to sand a carbon shaft before sliding the Dynel on and adding epoxy. On my Mitchell, the carbon weave is such that any damage, including sanding, may damage carbon fibers and leave weak spots. There just isn't much to some carbon shafts, and little margin for damage from rubbing agains hulls, or from sanding before glassing.
A low-risk approach would be thorough cleaning with solvents know not to damage existing epoxy, using clean cloths. This is equivalent to removing amine blush from existing epoxy so new epoxy will adhere.
On both my Mitchell and Clinch River carbon shafts, the existing fibers are right up at the surface, and once dirt and oils are removed, adherence of new epoxy should be very good.
When I ordered these paddles, I had the builders put on about 18" of shrink wrap vinyl tube over the shaft. This has been a good solution for protecting the most vulnerable part of the shafts.
My other Clinch River has a wooden shaft protected by what appears to be a Dynel sleeve in black resin (graphite powder). As I have worn down into the Dynel, I have started to have thickened, cracking skin in my thumb webs and on the little finger of my lower hand on my preferred side. I have never had this problem with any other paddle. It may be the Dynel fibers, or maybe something else entirely. I may have to strike off my custom wood T-grip and put on a vinyl sleeve.
Specifically, whether and how much to sand a carbon shaft before sliding the Dynel on and adding epoxy. On my Mitchell, the carbon weave is such that any damage, including sanding, may damage carbon fibers and leave weak spots. There just isn't much to some carbon shafts, and little margin for damage from rubbing agains hulls, or from sanding before glassing.
A low-risk approach would be thorough cleaning with solvents know not to damage existing epoxy, using clean cloths. This is equivalent to removing amine blush from existing epoxy so new epoxy will adhere.
On both my Mitchell and Clinch River carbon shafts, the existing fibers are right up at the surface, and once dirt and oils are removed, adherence of new epoxy should be very good.
When I ordered these paddles, I had the builders put on about 18" of shrink wrap vinyl tube over the shaft. This has been a good solution for protecting the most vulnerable part of the shafts.
My other Clinch River has a wooden shaft protected by what appears to be a Dynel sleeve in black resin (graphite powder). As I have worn down into the Dynel, I have started to have thickened, cracking skin in my thumb webs and on the little finger of my lower hand on my preferred side. I have never had this problem with any other paddle. It may be the Dynel fibers, or maybe something else entirely. I may have to strike off my custom wood T-grip and put on a vinyl sleeve.
carbon shafts and scratches do not go well together ... had several break because of scratches
I would go real easy and use a pretty high grade of sandpaper, if sanding
the first thing I do with a new carbon shaft is wrap the lower shaft with vinyl electrical tape (black, just because), and replace only as needed, really tends to last quite a while; however sounds like this may not be enough in your situation... however it would be a cheap, easy, reversable fixxxxx
I would go real easy and use a pretty high grade of sandpaper, if sanding
the first thing I do with a new carbon shaft is wrap the lower shaft with vinyl electrical tape (black, just because), and replace only as needed, really tends to last quite a while; however sounds like this may not be enough in your situation... however it would be a cheap, easy, reversable fixxxxx
another use of duct tape
My dad and I have AB edge paddles. My shaft had worn through 1 layer of the black. It didn't get all the way to the core though. I just keep applying a new layer of duct tape. It never gets too thick since the tape is also getting worn down. It really takes a beating now on the aluminum gunwales on my whitesell.
The epoxy is probably a good patch for it, but still roll some duct tape over the area that comes in contact with the gunwale, better to have tape take the wear than the paddle.
The epoxy is probably a good patch for it, but still roll some duct tape over the area that comes in contact with the gunwale, better to have tape take the wear than the paddle.
I saw a duck skirt a hole and then eddy out. He could have easily flown. Makes you wonder, why'd he do that?
First of all, the electrical tape is an excellent idea. It is not expensive, and will keep abrasion to a minimum. It won't help to repair any weak spots, but it will keep the paddle from wearing any further. I personally would vote for electrical tape over duct tape just because it will look almost like an integrated part of the shaft.
I haven't really spent much time around any Zephyrs, but I have seen a few and I know that the weave of the twintex is quite rough, and I could see it being rather abrasive. Rubbing the paddle shaft against it excessively would definitely wear through most paddles.
When I first started paddling I noticed rather quickly that the carbon shaft on my mitchell was getting lots of little superficial scratches. Right at the spot where, if I would do a stern pry of any sort, the shaft would be touching the gunwale. Now I have refined and altered my paddling technique and style so that I don't spend much time with my paddle against the hull of the boat--except when surfing.
Nate
I haven't really spent much time around any Zephyrs, but I have seen a few and I know that the weave of the twintex is quite rough, and I could see it being rather abrasive. Rubbing the paddle shaft against it excessively would definitely wear through most paddles.
When I first started paddling I noticed rather quickly that the carbon shaft on my mitchell was getting lots of little superficial scratches. Right at the spot where, if I would do a stern pry of any sort, the shaft would be touching the gunwale. Now I have refined and altered my paddling technique and style so that I don't spend much time with my paddle against the hull of the boat--except when surfing.
Nate
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bearboater
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more than anything it's the abrasion against the hull, change your style, and it goes away. i also wrap all my shafts in electrical tape for A) hand placement B) abrasion on hull. it has very few to no scratches my the time the blade breaks, but it is a general good thing to do. i have found that duct tape will last longer for abrasion resistance as there is simple more fiberous content to it. but for weight savings, and as often as I hit the side of the boat, i use electrical tape.
i only paddle slalom at the moment, therefore I rarely hit my boat, but i have a few times, and i find the electrical tapeto be adequate, my current paddle is 15 months old, and the blade is almost gone, but the shaft is still good to go...
and one fun thing to try also, is if you can, when surfing. Don't use the boat as a leverage point, just slice the blade back and forth with your shaft hand, it's a little more finesse, but it saves the shaft. and it improves your paddling by adding different situations to your skill-set.
I sounded like kent ford.
cheers
-isaac
i only paddle slalom at the moment, therefore I rarely hit my boat, but i have a few times, and i find the electrical tapeto be adequate, my current paddle is 15 months old, and the blade is almost gone, but the shaft is still good to go...
and one fun thing to try also, is if you can, when surfing. Don't use the boat as a leverage point, just slice the blade back and forth with your shaft hand, it's a little more finesse, but it saves the shaft. and it improves your paddling by adding different situations to your skill-set.
I sounded like kent ford.
cheers
-isaac
race boats are so fast, i bet its in the speed wing.
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Mr.DeadLegs
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Mr.DeadLegs
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Don't know what happened tried to use the quote and it didn't make the post. So now the post without the quote.
What the hades are you doing to your paddle to wear it out in 15 months. It is a paddle not a pole. You use a paddle in water a pole for rocks and the bottom. I know we occasionally hit the bottom with the blade, but dam 15 months and the blade is gone. You must be very wealthy to afford to treat your paddle this way. Yes it is a drought and there isn't much water here in the Southeast, but if there is enough to float your boat there should be enough for your paddle.
As far as the shaft wear goes, form, form, form. I do wear the shaft on my paddles, it usually occurs on my offside and when I get sloppy. If you are grinding the side of your boat with every stroke I guess you could go through a shaft in 7 months. In that case and if you don't want to work on form, get a good job so you can by new paddles twice a year, or get an aluminum shafted paddle. It may weigh more but it will last.
I did break my carbon Bandit this year. The shaft broke, too many rock braces. Heard a funny/strange sound on the Upper Green(fun water) then attaining a surf the shaft just snapped. Took 2 or 3 strokes for it to sink in. lol Too many rock braces. That is my crutch. Possibly the tape would have helped.
I think it will be a Mitchell next. I tried Trammells Mitchell on the Ocoee this summer, it was soooooooo nice. Good feel, beautifully built. I called them and they had all the right answers.
Adam, Phil what you been doing in the dry summer of hades.
Trey
What the hades are you doing to your paddle to wear it out in 15 months. It is a paddle not a pole. You use a paddle in water a pole for rocks and the bottom. I know we occasionally hit the bottom with the blade, but dam 15 months and the blade is gone. You must be very wealthy to afford to treat your paddle this way. Yes it is a drought and there isn't much water here in the Southeast, but if there is enough to float your boat there should be enough for your paddle.
As far as the shaft wear goes, form, form, form. I do wear the shaft on my paddles, it usually occurs on my offside and when I get sloppy. If you are grinding the side of your boat with every stroke I guess you could go through a shaft in 7 months. In that case and if you don't want to work on form, get a good job so you can by new paddles twice a year, or get an aluminum shafted paddle. It may weigh more but it will last.
I did break my carbon Bandit this year. The shaft broke, too many rock braces. Heard a funny/strange sound on the Upper Green(fun water) then attaining a surf the shaft just snapped. Took 2 or 3 strokes for it to sink in. lol Too many rock braces. That is my crutch. Possibly the tape would have helped.
I think it will be a Mitchell next. I tried Trammells Mitchell on the Ocoee this summer, it was soooooooo nice. Good feel, beautifully built. I called them and they had all the right answers.
Adam, Phil what you been doing in the dry summer of hades.
Trey
"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to slide in sideways totally worn out, shouting "Holy large steaming pile of dog doo what a Ride" " Nolan Whitesell
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bearboater
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Mr.DeadLegs
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I have heard that charlette is abrasive and abusive. Almost went a few weeks ago. My bandit broke about the same place. Like I said it did'nt suprise me when it happened. I didn't see anything after the green trip, but it made a strange sound when I just lightly tapped a rock on the bottom. I think that was the straw. Have you had a Mitchell. I am thinking wood shaft Carbon blade.
"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to slide in sideways totally worn out, shouting "Holy large steaming pile of dog doo what a Ride" " Nolan Whitesell
Isaac, was it one of your TE5s that broke recently? I just ordered one of the 3Ms, and I'm hoping it'll hold up a little longer than that. Did you see the video of Estanguet breaking his paddle blade during the Beijing Test event? He just keeps paddling for a few strokes after it breaks--he looked rather surprised. I guess the power of that pourover he broke it on must have pushed the blade into the cement bottom or something when he rolled.
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bearboater
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he did a high brace roll, and it snapped against the bottom... i have broken both the 3m and the te5. the 3m is a little stiffer, but the te5 feels better to me. i ordered a crc from france with a really similar design to the te5, and so i will see how they do. i saw jamies raab's, and they looked sweet. really nice craftsmanship, and the metal tip looked better than the CRC or gala...
the problem with the te5 is that if you have any impact on the side of the blade, since there is no spine, if the side is compromised, the paddle has a place to snap from. the few that I have broken have all snapped where the edge was compromised. well, save for the first one, i just popped the blade on that one...
cheers
-isaac
the problem with the te5 is that if you have any impact on the side of the blade, since there is no spine, if the side is compromised, the paddle has a place to snap from. the few that I have broken have all snapped where the edge was compromised. well, save for the first one, i just popped the blade on that one...
cheers
-isaac
race boats are so fast, i bet its in the speed wing.
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philinasheville
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Mr.DeadLegs
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Phil
COVER THAT THING UP. You will be up to your eyeballs in babies soon. lol Congrats. I got on the Upper Green. The river was fun the take out suuuuuuuuuuuukkkkkkkkkkkkkkssssssssssssss. Let me know when you are going.
Trey
COVER THAT THING UP. You will be up to your eyeballs in babies soon. lol Congrats. I got on the Upper Green. The river was fun the take out suuuuuuuuuuuukkkkkkkkkkkkkkssssssssssssss. Let me know when you are going.
Trey
"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to slide in sideways totally worn out, shouting "Holy large steaming pile of dog doo what a Ride" " Nolan Whitesell