how to convert a pool roll to a combat roll

[jakke]

Hi,

I'm learning to roll now since a month or three. In the pool my roll is reliable. As in, 2 - 3 times I have to give a roll a second try on 1.30h time in the pool.
I fail a semi-hand roll in my boat, but I have rolled plenty of different types -with paddle of course-: mohawk viper11 and probe11, esquif: salsa, nitro, spark, zoom, ... .

The problem is that last week on a training session out-there, I failed almost every attempt on the river. (I did manage to get back up in a surf-wave though -on power-)

On the video footage I did see some problems:
- my head rises too soon on the river

I also have a few thoughts on my own moves:
- I have the impression I try to rush things on the river
- Things seem to be in my way, when wearing a drysuit and a pfd.
- trying to roll with the paddle upstream really sucks! but how to know and how to turn.

Anyone has some tips? I start to dislike the plenty swims when fooling around. A decent roll would really make my learning curve step up.


Thanks!

[sbroam]

It took me a while to convert the pool roll to a river roll. I think it was a combination of physical and mental factors - the river (and the gear you are wearing) are a bit different *and* you are thinking differently.

The physical part - In the river it *is* a little harder to roll - work on the pool roll, get it automatic, get it strong, roll a bunch to exercise the muscles and develop the "muscle memory". In the pool you may be able to get away with a less than perfect, less than strong roll - in the river, you may need better form and strength to be reliable especially when rolling on the upstream side (not impossible, not even that much harder). Your gear may be a little different (dry suit) and you might not want to get that in the pool (chlorine), so practice some rolls in the river on the flats, too.

The mental part - you really can roll in the river, you just need to get your subconcious to know it, too! When you roll in the pool, you know you are going to flip - in whitewater, maybe not. So, flip on purpose - drill peeling out into current and flipping - onside and offside. Flip in a hole. Get used to the way it is in the river - colder, louder, more turbulent. After a while it becomes automatic. Hopefully not as long as it took for me!

[awelch]

I am about at the the same point; trying to get my roll reliable in whitewater. I always find it distracting to set up while my helmet is bouncing across the rocks. But I also find it works out like calculus; you really don't have to know why it works you just have to know the steps, focus and follow them and you get it right.

I am good for about 40% of my attempts on the river. I have only been trying to hang in there and roll for a couple of weeks though. Other than that I am relying on my excellent freestyle and gear hearding abilities.

Andy

[jakke]

I'm just trying to get a roll on the river, not even talking about reliable

Anyhow, are there any pool exercises too really force you to do a decent roll? Hand roll (ok, with foam plates used for swim-workouts) I just fail at the end. I can't get my viper over the hard chine! So maybe my finishing touch is still a bit sloppy? i'm training for over 3 months now, for about every week. My muscles have sort of a habbit in rolling by now. (though I sometimes have a bad day, choose a bad angle for my paddle blade and really have to fight to get up!)

I'll also take my boat and gear to a pond and roll it there. I did roll it on the flats a couple times, but it was hard. But summer is comming and water is a lot nicer to be in

It's more of a mental issue having to tip over on purpose on the river. Tipping over is not the problem, but a failed roll is always a fight for recuperation. I'm now thinking of a really mild current, where there is a mill on it. After the mill there is a small wavetrain and 2 really big eddies. Ideal for still water training, and lots of place for recuperation.

I do seem distracted by the current, the waves, ... . I guess the setup gets a bit sloppier, head rises too soon, ... . It's not about not knowing the steps, but really finishing them as they should be, one by one.

I think it'll take some more swims to manage...

[Open Gate]

Many things could be said...try this

Close you eyes in the pool and make the sequence of action an automatic movement. Then close your eyes in the river when your upside down and repeat as in pool.

If my roll fails the 1st time in turbulent water, I close my eyes, back to face in float bag, and start over with eyes closed so I can really isolate (focus) on body position...and everything else.

Are you banging your elbows on your gunnels ? Scratching your nose on same ? Your face has to be the last thing that comes out of the water !!!
Most important in WW and current (panic) makes head come out to quick...roll fails

Ho yes, 3 things,

1st STAY CLAM !!
2nd STAY CLAM !!
and 3rd but not least STAY CLAM !!!

If you manage these 3 things success will be yours !

[Larry Horne]

You're on the right track! You know what your doing wrong (head), and you know what you need to do to fix it. It just takes lots of practice. You're almost there.. Keep up the pool work, but there's only so much you can do in a heated pool. You have to work on it in the river. Playing lots will take care of that! A nice little flippy hole with a nice recovery pool is very helpfull because you WILL flip unexpectedly...

[awelch]

I am not familiar with CLAM is that an acronym?

[Paddle Power]

Calm?
As in peaceful or tranquil.

or CLAM
as in Close your eyes, Learn to be Automatic, Move/Motion/Momentum?

[Mikey B]

I found myself always rushing my roll while when in WW and it helped me to just tuck forward get my paddle to the side of the boat out of the water,ready to swing out and finish the roll...it forced me to stop and relax for a second, which made all the difference in the world.
I think it's a psychological thing, feel like you have to make it and not much time to do it, whereas you usually have plenty of time.
It'll come and you'll wonder how you ever missed all them rolls
Mike

[jnorto01]

Hey Jakke,
SLOW DOWN! When out on the river, there is the "Oh crap I flipped and if I blow it in gonna swim" factor. Try to get this out of your head and just concentrate on getting a good set up.

Think SLOW DOWN!!!. If you rush it you are going to blow it. You need to learn to over ride your brain saying "Get up! Get up! I want air!"

Keep your head down,face in the water, until you feel the gunnel hit you in the ribs. Then bring your head in and wipe your nose on the float bag.

I had a good pool roll and for a very long time a river roll was a two try event. I would rush it on the first go and fail. Then I would slow it down and nail it on the second try.

As I started playing harder and getting flipped more, my roll slowly evolved into a very quick reflex with no concious thought. Also playing with C boats helped me a lot because I got flipped a lot more thatn in the open boat. It now works most every time the first time.

[Open Gate]

I am not familiar with CLAM is that an acronym?

Sorry Guys, wen't a bit quick there...meant calm, as in relaxed...which is key

Wow paddle power that's an excellent acronym for my mistake...tks !

[knu2xs]

The way I overcame this was simply the drill outlined above, to intentionally turn over in a safe location, then once upside down, count to ten by seconds, one-one-thousand, two-one-thousand, etc. Then calmly roll. Usually this was a part of a benign playspot. Once I got bored, ready to get off the wave, I just flipped.

[jakke]

I did some kind of "slow down" exercise in the pool before. Flip over, but instead of rolling immediately just hang in upside down for a short while, then roll. Maybe I should try that on the river too.

But first things first. I think I should work on a reliable roll when wearing my pfd and drysuit on calm water. One way or another that combination bothers my roll as well. -maybe I just took a bad angle for my blade because I was rushing -

Next thing is to stay clam trying it on a mild current. Just have the feeling the boat moves, and beeing ok with that.

I think I know a good spot to work on that. Now I should find myself a buddy to join me!

Thanks for the tips so far!

[awelch]

Since I have been trying to get it in rapids this winter, after practicing last summer in dead calm spots, it has definitely been more difficult with drysuit. My drysuit adds bulk (and I'm already pretty bulky) and is slightly restricting but I think it adds buoyancy as does the PFD so you might end up finding it easy with your gear on. I think the drysuit keeps me from being able to right my boat as quickly though (hip snap).

[kanusport]

There have been a lot of good posts on the mental side of the subject but lets not forget about the technique. I have found that for me if I think about technique I am not worried that I'll come up.
IMHO here are some things I feel certain help me when rolling an open boat or c1.
Good set up
Arch your back
Tgrip on or near your navel at the same time you shaft hand is plastered against your forehead.
Then when I go to roll I'm thinking legs, legs, legs.
I actively throw my offside leg first
When upside down I'm thinking arched back and legs legs legs, I actually repeat this to myself like a mantra or something.
Lastly, don't press down on your paddle too much, less is more, that in conjunction with keeping your head down and wiping your nose across the gunnels.
It's all in the technique.Especially as the water get squirrely.Like in big water, rolling on the back side of the wave etc..