C-Forum

Well, I'm ready to try something different for thigh straps. I have no use for velcro, and it is very difficlut to get a good side release buckle these days it appears.

I'll likely try the "cam buckles" that East Coast Canoes is selling, but I'm wondering what else is out there these days. I know of many older systems (Northern, Brown, and the like), and I do have one Mike Yee set up, but I really prefer 2" straps (the MY setup I have is 1"strap with padding...I can never really get it tight enough for my liking).

Other than bulkheads, what other systems are you using, where can you get it these days, and what are the pros / cons.

Note that I will not go the lap belt route, as I personally do not fell comfortable with them.

Everyone should set their boat up so that they are both physically & mentally comfortable. The first priority is that you can get out when you need to. You may have a great roll, but you never know when the paddle will break or when you'll get stuffed under a tree (yeah, watched that happen on Sunday)

I like lap-belts w/ a cam-buckle. Pull a cam-buckle w/ one finger & I'm out. That said, it took a few years for me to warm up to them. Today I was actually apprehensive w/ the thigh-straps & Fastec buckles. I should spend 10 minutes & adjust them so that the buckles aren't crammed between my leg & the death block.

OK, now to your question: I like the weight belt & plastic cam buckles that I get at a dive shop. The only problem is that the weight belt is kind of abrasive. You'll want to wear the longer shorts that seem to be popular now.

If you get cam buckles & some other type of strap, be sure that they are compatible. I find that the buckles I use have too much clearance for seat-belt material. Also, I have one old cam buckle in a box that is fine w/ seat-belt material, but doesn't have enough clearance for the weight belt.

we used to use a couple of these:

[img]http://www.aplusproducts.net/images/9/257.jpg[/img]

that were 2" stainless steel and welded.

We stacked two on the end of one loop, and then doubled back the free end of the other, onto itself.... never had a failure with the welded ones... and adjust really well

I'm thinking about going dive buckles for thigh straps - my "perfect" setup I usually aim for involves straps that keep me stable, but that if I "push" and extend my legs (driving my feet to the stern) I can get out in an emergency without having to unbuckle. A good "backrest" is key to keep me in my seat.

The 'loop' idea is interesting Philcanoe - a friend of mine did something similar when hiking the AT for his hammock tent. It wasn't exactly quick release though - how is your set up for releasability?

I know I have pix up somewheres of those Brown Pack System straps - we need to get those or something like them available again. Very secure, yet instantly releasable.

Adam- A couple of non-standard ideas. In my ww boat, I am using a single, 5-6 foot length of 1.5" webbing with 1 side lock buckle as both lap belt and knee straps, with standard crotch and hip anchors. The webbing goes in at the left hip anchor, under both crotch anchors, and up through the right hip anchor. When I get in, I pull up two loops for my knees, the buckle is on the left, and the right strap doubles back to form a lap belt. I can center the buckle for easy access, and can get out without touching the buckle, but if I need to, there is only a single buckle to loosen. This only works in boats with "room", and I would NOT use it in a slalom/squirt boat.

The other interesting variation I have seen came from the Czechs/Slovaks in 2003. They used the usual knee straps with standard hip and crotch anchors, and side lock quick release buckles. However, they did not anchor the straps directly to the hip anchors. Instead, they formed a small loop in the strap, and used a twig about the size and thickness of a pencil as a "chock" to hold the hip strap against the anchor. The theory was that you could get plenty of tension, but in a dire emergency you could simply yank hard on the strap in panic mode and break the twigs. Just some thoughts...edg

to lighten merely pull down on loose end of webbing (blue line)
to loosen, as using toe blocks (in OC1)... it's real easy for me to move toes off blocks (Yakima's) and i'm free

the rather square center thing, is a illustration of making one from a flat piece of aluminum... these worked well

hint...go over top ring, and back thru other (underneath) ring



as for the stick in webbing...

Frankie use to do something similar with straps going thru a thrwart... he cut slot, pushed up doubled 2" webbing, and put stick thru... however i never broke one of the sticks... worked good for years, and there's always a free buckle lying around (from homeboy's school of boat'n)

whatever method you choose...would also consider slipping something flexible into webbing, so that it kept it's shape once two ends were together... makes getting in real easy

Humm.. some good thoughts here....
I've dabbled with a couple set ups and found I like to keep it simple with 2" straps with 4 - 2" D-rings bolted or glassed into 4 seperate locations - 2 placed near the outside of the hips and 2 between legs. Each is independent from the others. Then use 2" webbing with those plastic 2" backpack clips.
Yes these can fail so I use the webbing as a loop through both upper outside and lower center D-rings on each side. Keeping the clips on the outside of the loop. In effect you have double straps holding you in on each thigh. You ca have them on top of each other or seperate them so you have double the contact over the thighs.
I also use a bit more webbing than needed (held in place by retainers) - that way if there is a failure (none to date for me) you can knot them together or jury rig a set up if need be. Mike W. I know has seen anchor point failure and that sucks!
I also install a solid bulkhead, or movable suicide block, to hold the forward area of my thighs in place and out as wide as possible (this is key for control INMO). Along with the starps.
I don't like or use hip pads but use ankle blocks and foot padding mounted on the interior deck. I like the paddling at the ankles and feet since I apply downword pressure to assist in holding me in.
Having a raised "butt block" assists in applying pressure to the bulk head and straps when in play mode.
Since I reuse the process I can re-cycle parts, buy in more bulks and intall rather quickly. The set up is not heavy and functions well for me.
One other set I used and liked (and one others use) is snowboard boot straps with a ratching system. Basically the same as above but tieing in the snowboard straps instead of webbing. I just find them more expensive - If I get the straps free I'll use them. WHat is nice about this set up is the ratch system - you can leave them lose or tight down when needed.
No velcro for me (found a high failure rate ), the jam cleat set up (like Philcanoe shows) work well I just don't like having metal on my legs.
Seltbelt connected single strap suicide set ups just plain scare me - I always get nervous borrowing someones boat with them but again thats a head game for me.

Hope this helps.

Adam:

I have used 2" tubular webbing with 2" side-release buckles with no problems. That's the set-up I currently have in my Dagger Zealot slalom boat (inherited from Jim Graham) and I recently installed a similar set-up in the Prijon Delirious that I converted for my oldest son. Check the conversion photos for one of the outfitting. I can't recall whether I got the buckles from REI or from www.strapworks.com , but it was probably the latter.

I don't think I've ever unlatched the buckle during a bailout. Just backing my legs toward the stern loosens up the straps enough that I can come out without unfastening the buckles.

I have also used 2" seat-belt style webbing with 2" velcro with good success (the current outfitting in my Torrent XL C-2 and my son's Galasport Jungle C-1), but if you have had bad experiences with velcro I can understand your avoiding it.

I'm also a big fan of bulkheads, but then again I'm a big fan of hanging seats so maybe I'm a little eccentric.

John

I like the 2" contoured ladder lock buckles. http://www.seattlefabrics.com/ladder.html
Super simple to use, they don't slip and will not/ can not fail. you can make a set of staps easily.... no other hardware or sewing required. For my knees i have bulkheads in my little boats, but in the creek boat i put in snowboard straps. They're cool because they don't block access to the bow, and the straps are stiff enough to just stay THERE, you don't have to touch them getting in and out. AND they adjust easily for hot or cold weather.. or other paddlers. In my opinion, they are way better than a bulkhead.

John Coraor wrote:Adam:

That's the set-up I currently have in my Dagger Zealot slalom boat (inherited from Jim Graham)

John

Is it possible I actually did something sort of right for once?

My current setup in my Loco (inherited from Tad Dennis) is also 2 inch webbbing with side release buckles. The webbing is anchored directly to the hull.

Echoing previous comments - do what feels good...

I'm going to get some of the Drings I think from East coast canoes- personally I love the rigid thigh straps for a c1. they get tight and work well- and I've taken lap belts out of my creekers. I like them for playboating, but I think a lap belt on a creek could cause problems- and lots of folks with experience have shared this wisdom with me and the more I think about the more sense it makes- I have been pinned on Wilson with water pushing on top of the boat- it was easy swimming without the lapbelt- for playing I dont think this risk is there, or at least its a much more reasonable risk, and honestly if my thighs werent so big and my legs so short - I might not have to worry about the lap belt ever

I've had the snow board buckles in my Viper for 2 years and like them well. They are hard to release when upside down and in a hurry but I have never not been able to get out. I usually paddle with them snug and that is sufficient for most of my paddling and lets me slide out without releasing. If I tighten them down further then they hold me in place, no lift off the saddle.
The snaptek buckles were just as hard to release under pressure as these are.
You want to get the buckles with the lift tab not the push button.

Jim

I don't like to add weight with outfitting, so my thigh straps are very simple, cut to a suitable length, and then tied with short lengths of cord to the hull attachment loops. I don't even fold back and stitch the nylon straps. Instead I soak the strap ends in Seam Grip, and then put a brass grommet through the reinforced part of the strap.

Buckles, Velcro, etc, inevitably mean more weight, especially once the straps are wet. I would like to get some polypropelene straps that don't loosen when wet like Nylon straps do, but after I got my Nylon straps cut and tied at the correct length, I learned to just pre-wet them when first getting in the boat. An ounce or two of water weight that will end up in there anyway.

everyone,
thanks for the inquiries
Sir Adam, i've sent e-mails to you.
we have setup many boats and they still are using the system .
i can custom make and setup you want, any size or configuration.
just let me know what you need any i will try to help you out.

got a question?
what is this Brown Pack System that i've heard about?
my website is still down, some kinda of code? issues with pics and videos, i really need to get it back up and running, so i can help out some people out.
let me know
john