C-Forum

1. Liquidlogic CR 125
2. Fluid Spice M
3. Fluid Flirt M

After 2 bad days in my LL Session (Ocoee and Mongaup) I realized my boat is the limiting factor in my paddling. I need a river runner with a bit of play. I am 6 foot 215 lbs. Paddling experience is in Session C1, Mr. Clean C1 and K1, and lots of other random boats as K1's (X, Blitz, etc).

Please help me rank these boats to look out for on the used boat boards and demo opportunities. I would like to be able to run some class IV but be able to play on the II's and III's.

Should I move to the larger sizes?
What boats am I missing?
What would be your ranking?

I would venture to say that you are really pushing the upper weight ranges in all of those boats.

I way 50 lbs less and those are the sizes I would use. No doubt you could throw those boats around but I believe that would come at the expense of overall prformance.

I don't have any personal experience with any of the boats but have heard good things about all of them. But I would guess a size larger would be better.

Just my .02

-Bryan

What was wrong with the Mr. Clean? At 215 I would think it was a "river runner with a bit of play". Also might think about a WS Z.

I think a Large Flirt would be perfect for you. It's a very comfy river runner with pretty good play potential too. Incredible stability and very roomy for converting.
MB

The Clean did have a bit of play, but the designs today are so much better.

The cockpit looks a little shorter on the Z. One of the major problems I have with the session is the low cockpit rim digs into my "Powerful thighs." How much different is the Z than the X because I wasn't a big fan of the X as a K1?

I was pretty set on the liquidlogic, but the Flirt seems to have way more fans.

ook into a full volume Shaggy Sith. Everyone I know who has one LOVES it! I paddle at 185 lbs a 2 cm cut, and it worked even when I was over 195 lbs, so a full cut should be fine at 215 lbs.
Very balanced and stable, as it wasdesigned as a C1, but it can still be thrown around with ease!

http://www.shaggydesigns.com/

Just my 02 cents.

martin a.k.a. the great gonzo!

A few others to think about:

Big Boy
Sith (already mentioned)
Z

Big EZ?

Are you in the City these days? If so, you're not that far from the upcoming Hudson Armada...where there will be at least one Sith...and Wheelboy...and who knows what else....

215 and your paddling a session? I tried one and it barely floated me at 180lbs. I couldn't stay upright in big splashy class III... it was fun, but I wouldn't want it to be my boat!

You must be a Kayaker....they seem to get the smallest boat they can get away with, but c-boating is different and we need to size up a little.

If you want to have good days, maybe try a bigger boat.
Seems to me that at 215 you wouldn't want to be in any "M" boat unless it's just for kicks.

Can't help with boat selection because I don't believe in "river runner with a bit of play" But that's just me....probably because in Cali we don't have any epic play. But we do have EPIC class IV- V so I'm in a creek boat (L Burn) 95% of the time.
I'll run easy IV in my wheelboy, it's tons more predictable than my previous play/river boats. an X and a flipstick (the last river/play boats I will ever own).

I am in the city, but I don't think I can make it up to the armada. Although, I have dreamed of going to one ever since I joined this forum. How do the armadas work? Is it hard core river running all the time or is there some messing around on a lake to demo some boats?

I really like the idea of getting a true C1 but the Sith may be out of my price range. I was looking into getting a slalom boat a while ago, but that was when I had room for more than one boat.

Can anyone compare the ride or handling of a Z versus the Flirt?

IIRC (and I'm not an expert in this realm) the Flirt is a much smaller boat than the Z, and for your weight will be more of a cork than a river-runner (same for the Wheelboy).

Regarding Armadas, every one is different. For the Hudson Armada Saturday is usually an all day river running day, as it's a long trip (18 miles). Sunday is usually a mess around in boats day for those that are still around.

That said, if you just want to try out boats, you're welcome any time - just PM me if you'll be in the Lake George / Saratoga Springs area (or if you want to come up for a weekend). I occasionally go to Weehawken, NJ, and the ferry is just about 3 hours from here, with no traffic (or at least knowing how to avoid most of it going up Riverside Drive and the Palisades).

Alright, even though I am a huge LL fanboy I guess it's time to look into something else. I will keep a lookout for the flirt or the Z and if I get a massive raise I will call Shaggy.

Thanks for all the help eveyone. Does Fluid sell plain hulls or has anyone seen a large flirt for sale in the NE? The Z may be more elusive, but the NOC has one for cheap.

Personally I think the CR 250 or the L Flirt would be 2 good options for your size. The L Nemesis if available would be more playful than both if its even avaialable (porbably won't find one used though). The L Spice would be more of a river runner but still surfs and spins. I paddle a CR 125 and I'm 195, it's good for play but not so great for running bigger rivers, good for II and III, others are better for IV though. My thoughts
B

I'm about 215-220# (depending on the week!) and have been in a Mr. Clean and Z - the Clean definitely was playful (sinking ends) but far too slow for me to do anything with it (couldn't ferry, catch a wave, etc). The Z was great - easily a river runner and very playable. I went shopping for a Z and ended up with an Ultra-Clean - much better than the Mr. Clean, but still slow. I paddled that for a year or so before un-converting it and selling it. I tried a Score at an Armada and loved it - still have it 4(?) years later. I'm not the most aggressive playboater, I like some speed, surfability, and squirtability. I also like to be mostly on top of the water (sink the ends not the middle!) - the Score does that for me.

I'm around 170lbs and have a M flirt and a X. I feel at my weight I'm on the upper limit of the X for river running. A Z would probably work well for you. The Flirt is a great hole surfing boat, very capable of all the latest freestyle moves if ya got the skill, but being a ~6 foot long boat it is just STUPID SLOW. I think it is just way to slow for being a general purpose river runner. The Z at
8 1/2 long is a relatively fast boat especially when paddled up on edge, that will allow you to really bust out some technical moves that require speed and precision.
Have you though of a Session Plus, its the same boat just bigger. That could help but the session looks pretty slicey.
The Spice looks like it would be a good conversion but at your weight I would go for the large. Hope this helps. Jim

I was looking into a session + when I purchased the smaller session but I never heard anything positive about them at the time. Has anyone else tried it?

I think the Z or the slice is the boat for me. The flirt and the score might be too slow. I was thinking about it and the worst things always happen to me when I can't catch the back of a mid river eddy and get sucked backwards down the next rapid. Plus a bigger boat may help me learn more proper technique which I badly need. Am I wrong on this? Is it crazy to think about practicing paddling on flatwater with the Slice or Z? I know it's insane to do anything with the Session on flatwater except throw endless ends and roll practice.