C-Forum

Posted: **Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:32 pm**

It looks like hull speed and carrying capacity are the two most important criteria, since there will be little whitewater.

The Swamp Hen looks fast but may not have the carrying capacity. Is the A.C./D.C. fast?

The trip is over 5,000 miles, half of it upstream into the prevailing winds. I'll be carry me, portage wheels, folding bicycle, camp gear, clothes, and provisions for up to 45 days at a time. Maybe a total net weight of 350#.

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<font face="courier><pre>
                                                                             Miles
                                                                    ------------------------
        From                     To                                 River Portage Cumulative
        ------------------------ ---------------------------------- ----- ------- ----------
Potomac River
        Fletcher's Boathouse     Little Falls                         1.3                1.3
        Little Falls             Little falls Dam                     1.4                2.7
        Little Falls Dam         Callico Falls                        5.2                7.9
        Callico Falls            Difficult Run Rapids                 1.5                9.3
        Difficult Run            Fisherman's Eddy                     1.6      .6       11.6
        Great Falls              Violette's Lock                      7.7               19.3
        Violette's Lock          White's Ferry                       10.4               29.8
        White's Ferry            Mouth of Monocacy                    9.4               39.2
        Mouth of Monocacy        Point of Rocks                       6.1               45.3
        Point of Rocks           Harper's Ferry                      11.8               57.0
        Harper's Ferry           Top of the Needles                   1.8               58.8
        Top of the Needles       Antietam Creek                       7.0               65.8
        Antietam Creek           Dam #4                              14.8               80.6
        Dam #4                   Williamsport Dam                    12.3               92.8
        Williamsport Dam         Dam #5                              10.3              103.1
        Dam#5                    Hancock                             21.5              124.5
        Hancock                  Little Orleans                      16.7              141.3
        Little Orleans           Paw Paw                             21.9              163.2
        Paw Paw                  South Branch                         8.8              171.9
        South Branch             Cumberland Dam                      22.2              194.2
        Cumberland Dam           Luke dam                            33.1              227.3
        Luke dam                 Mouth of Savage                      1.7              229.0
Savage River                        
        Mouth of Savage          Savage Dam                            .0     5.0      234.0
        Savage Dam               Big Run Campground                   2.5              236.5
Eastern Divide                                   
        Big Run Campground       S. Br. Casselman R.                          9.0      245.5
Casselman River                                   
        Maynardier Ridge Road    N. Br. Casselman                     6.7              252.2
        N. Br. Casselman         Salisbury                           12.1              264.2
        Salisbury                Meyersdale                           9.4              273.7
        Meyersdale               Rockwood                            13.2              286.8
        Rockwood                 Markleton                            6.8              293.6
        Markleton                Ft. Hill                             6.1              299.6
        Ft. Hill                 Youghiogheny River                   9.1              308.7
Youghiogheny River
        Confluence               Ohiopyle                            10.3      .6      319.6
        Ohiopyle                 Brunner's Run                        7.0              326.6
        Brunner's Run            Connellsville Dam                    9.4              336.0
        Connellsville Dam        Monongahela River                   46.2              382.2
Monongahela River
        McKeesport               dam                                  4.3      .3      386.7
        dam                      Ohio River                          11.2              397.9
Ohio River
        Monongahela River        dam (Ben Avon)                       6.0      .5      404.4
        dam (Ben Avon)           dam (Edgeworth)                      7.1      .5      411.9
        dam (Edgeworth)          dam (Industry)                      18.4      .5      430.8
        dam (Industry)           dam (Stratton)                      22.7      .5      453.9
        dam (Stratton)           dam (Yorkville)                     30.0      .5      484.4
        dam (Yorkville)          dam (Hannibal)                      41.9      .8      527.1
        dam (Hannibal)           dam (Willow Island)                 34.4      .5      562.0
        dam (Willow Island)      dam (Reedsville)                    42.1      .5      604.6
        dam (Reedsville)         dam (Plants)                        33.8      .5      638.9
        dam (Plants)             dam (Eureka)                        41.6      .5      681.0
        dam (Eureka)             dam (Gray's Branch)                 61.7      .5      743.2
        dam (Gray's Branch)      dam (Willow Grove)                  94.2      .5      837.9
        dam (Willow Grove)       dam (Ethridge)                      94.3      .5      932.7
        dam (Ethridge)           dam (Louisville)                    72.7      .5     1005.9
        dam (Louisville)         dam (Skillman)                     115.6      .5     1121.9
        dam (Skillman)           dam (Vanada)                        53.9      .5     1176.3
        dam (Vanada)             dam (Uniontown)                     67.1      .5     1243.9
        dam (Uniontown)          dam (Hamletsburg)                   70.7      .5     1315.1
        dam (Hamletsburg)        dam (Brookport)                     19.5      .5     1335.1
        dam (Brookport)          dam (Levings)                       23.1      .5     1358.6
        dam (Levings)            Mississppi River                    18.4             1377.1
Mississppi River
        Cairo Point              Missouri River                     193.5             1570.5
Missouri River
        St. Louis                Jefferson City                     139.7             1710.2
        Jefferson City           Kansas City KS                     217.4             1927.6
        Kansas City KS           Nebraska line                      119.8             2047.4
        Nebraska line            Omaha                              109.8             2157.2
        Omaha                    Sioux City (SD Line)               129.2             2286.4
        Sioux City               Yankton Dam (Lewis and Clark Lake)  72.4     1.4     2360.2
        Yankton Dam              Pickstown Dam (Lake Francis Case)   64.8     1.8     2426.8
        Pickstown Dam            Ft. Thompson Dam (Lake Sharpe)     100.6     2.8     2530.2
        Ft. Thompson Dam         Pierre Dam (Lake Oahe)              76.1     6.4     2612.7
        Pierre                   ND Line                            142.1             2754.8
        ND Line                  Riverdale Dam                      153.6     4.8     2913.3
        Riverdale Dam            Ft. Union (MT line)                180.7             3094.0
        Ft. Union                Ft. Peck Dam (Fort Peck Lake)      166.0     4.4     3264.3
        Ft. Peck Dam             Rainbow Dam                        336.5     2.4     3603.2
        Rainbow Dam              Black Eagle Dam                      2.6      .6     3606.4
        Black Eagle Dam          Holter Dam (Holter Lake)            92.1      .9     3699.4
        Holter Dam (Holter Lake) Hauser Dam (Hauser Lake)            24.4      .3     3724.1
        Hauser Dam               Canyon Ferry (Canton Ferry Lake)    13.7     1.5     3739.3
        Canyon Ferry             Madison River                       68.5             3807.8
Madison River
        Missouri River           Beartrap Take-out                   30.6             3838.4
        Beartrap Take-out        Kitchen Sink Rapid                   5.3      .1     3843.8
        Kitchen Sink Rapid       2nd rapid                            1.5      .9     3846.2
        2nd rapid                1st rapid                             .8      .1     3847.2
        1st rapid                Power plant                           .4     1.6     3849.2
        Ennis Lake Dam           MT Rt 87                            56.5             3905.7
Continental Divide
        Madison River            Henrys Lake                                 12.9     3918.6
Henrys Fork
        ID Rt 287                Henry's Lake Dam                     7.2      .6     3926.3
        Henry's Lake Dam         (rapid, scout right)                11.6      .1     3938.0
        rapid                    rapids                               7.4             3945.4
        rapids                   Island Park Dam                      9.4     1.4     3956.2
        Island Park Dam          Hatchery Ford Rd.                   20.7     9.0     3986.0
        Below Lower Mesa Falls   dam (Ashton)                        16.7     1.0     4003.7
        Ashton                   dam (Fun Farm Rd.)                   9.1      .3     4013.0
        Fun Farm Rd.             dam (ID-20)                          1.3      .2     4014.5
        ID-20                    dam (St. Anthony)                    1.9      .2     4016.6
        Downtown St. Anthony     dam                                   .6      .1     4017.3
        West St. Anthony         Snake River                         33.1             4050.3
Snake River
        Henrys Fork              dam (Rigby)                         22.7      .1     4073.2
        Rigby                    dam (65th Rd., Idaho Falls)          6.4      .5     4080.2
        65th Rd.                 dam (33rd Rd., Idaho Falls           2.3      .1     4082.6
        33rd Rd.                 dam (ID-15, Idaho Falls)             2.2      .1     4084.8
        ID-15                    dam (W. Sunnyside, Idaho Falls)      1.8      .3     4086.9
        W. Sunnyside             dam (Cotton Rd., Idaho Falls)        4.1      .3     4091.3
        Cotton Rd.               rapid (Firth)                       13.9      .2     4105.5
        Firth                    dam (W. 200 N, Blackfoot)           11.9      .4     4117.7
        W. 200 N                 dam (Hoff Rd., Blackfoot)            2.5      .2     4120.4
        Hoff Rd.                 rapid                                3.2      .2     4123.8
        rapid                    dam (American Falls)                44.4     1.1     4169.3
        American Falls           rapid                                6.3      .8     4176.3
        rapid                    Mindoka Dam                         33.7     1.0     4211.0
        Mindoka Dam              Milner Dam                          34.9     2.2     4248.1
        Milner Dam               below Twin Falls                            36.2     4284.3
        below Twin Falls         Kanaka Rapids                       14.4      .3     4299.0
        Kanaka Rapids            dam (Hagerman)                      10.0     1.2     4310.1
        Hagerman                 dam (Turtle)                         6.5      .4     4317.1
        Turtle                   dam (Bliss)                         12.4      .8     4330.4
        Bliss                    CJ Strike Dam                       64.8      .7     4395.8
        CJ Strike Dam            Swan Falls Dam                      35.4      .8     4432.0
        Swan Falls Dam           Brownlee Dam                       169.7     1.3     4603.0
        Brownlee Dam             Oxbow Dam                           10.3      .5     4613.8
        Oxbow Dam                hades's Canyon Dam                   23.9     1.5     4639.2
        hades's Canyon Dam        Columbia River                     106.5             4745.7
Columbia River
        Snake River              dam (Amota Road)                    30.1     1.3     4777.2
        Amota Road               Little Goose Dam                    35.3      .9     4813.3
        Little Goose Dam         dam (Lower Monumental Road)         26.9     1.9     4842.1
        Lower Monumental Road    dam (Ice Harbor Drive)              29.0     1.1     4872.1
        Ice Harbor Drive         dam (McNary Road)                   40.0     1.0     4913.0
        McNary Road              John Day Dam                        73.6     1.5     4988.1
        John Day Dam             dam (Dalles California Hwy)         22.9      .7     5011.7
        Dalles California Hwy    Bonneville Dam                      45.9     1.6     5059.2
        Bonneville Dam           Skamokawa, WA                      107.3             5166.5
        Skamokawa, WA            36th St. Marina, Astoria            18.9             5185.4
</pre></font>[code]

Posted: **Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:52 pm**

Wow, that's quite a paragraph.
The AC/DC has some rocker and it's not as fast as the HEN. The HEN can't carry any gear other than a water bottle. The AC can easily handle 350 lbs of paddler and gear.
JKaz

Posted: **Wed Oct 01, 2008 1:07 am**

I was going to suggest the Swamp Hen when you first posted, but I thought you were joking about the trip.

I've got an old Wenonah C1W that's got decent upstream ability. But it's wet & doesn't turn well (unless you're REALLY moving). I haven't tried to cary anything in it though.

Posted: **Wed Oct 01, 2008 11:55 am**

I'd suggest calling John on the phone Richard... he'll walk you through what will most likely work the best.

That's one helluva list...

Is someone "retiring" soon?

Posted: **Wed Oct 01, 2008 3:16 pm**

I would suggest trying to borrow/ rent whatever boats you're interested and do an easy 200-300 mile upstream trip to make sure things work.

I suspect you'll be looking at a solo that's 17' or longer.

If you want a fun break-in period, we'll be doing our sometime annual Green River to Moab run next March. 120 miles downstream, 48 miles upstream.

This time of year the Missouri through the Missouri Breaks is another great upstream run.

I had a C-1W and would never use it for a trip like this. Too slow and not enough capacity. I suspect the Swamp Hen would be in the same situation.

Posted: **Wed Oct 01, 2008 5:06 pm**

Kaz boats are works of art...... but am I missing something here?
maybe a Bell Wildfire and sell it once you get to the west coast?

Curious about 45 days of provisions. A friend of mine did a cross canada expidition and mailed his provisions ahead "hold for pick-up" is there a security issue with this in the US? I don't recall his provisions being greater than 3 weeks at a time but I might be mistaken.

Posted: **Wed Oct 01, 2008 5:38 pm**

Richard,
In your postings so far, you haven't mentioned poling for your upstream travels. A break-down pole could be a great help when poling conditions are good. I do quite a bit of poling in Montana and it is amazing what you can attain. Since you only need enough water to float the boat, not for a paddle stroke, the options for the insides of turns on rivers like the Missouri are improved. Progress is slow but steady and unless the current is really swift, not that labor intensive. You can always paddle-ferry over to the new inside turn and resume poling. It is a nice stretch for the legs, you can see better and, for short distances, you can paddle faster in deep water with a pole than you can with a paddle... using a kayak style stroke with a 12' pole. When I first read about your plans, I thought about boats that some have already mentioned, like a Rendevous in Kevlar or other downriver solo boats, but after thinking about gear hauling AND poling, I think a more traditional tandem boat between 15'6" and 17" is the ticket. Millbrook Boats are great. As far as poling goes, it is very hard to pole a dedicated solo canoe... not enough platform under you. Harry Rock has a book about poling and I would be happy to share more information on the subject. Good luck with everything.

Posted: **Wed Oct 01, 2008 6:54 pm**

Craig Smerda wrote:I'd suggest calling John on the phone Richard... he'll walk you through what will most likely work the best.

That's one helluva list...

Is someone "retiring" soon?

Not through choice.

Posted: **Wed Oct 01, 2008 7:04 pm**

Gail R wrote:Kaz boats are works of art...... but am I missing something here?
maybe a Bell Wildfire and sell it once you get to the west coast?

Curious about 45 days of provisions. A friend of mine did a cross canada expidition and mailed his provisions ahead "hold for pick-up" is there a security issue with this in the US? I don't recall his provisions being greater than 3 weeks at a time but I might be mistaken.

Well, I'm talking about a trip that I just might be able to complete before the Snake and Columbia ice in, if I'm lucky with the weather conditions in the East when I leave in January.

I plan to reprovision once a month -- and yes, I would have my brother mail ahead for me, since small-town groceries won't have much of the kind of food I'd want -- but since I really don't know what to expect, no matter how carefully I map my route (where the Missouri braids, for example, I think it can, at some seasons, be only inches deep) I don't want to get caught 29 days into a 30-day supply, someplace in North Dakota where I'm struggling to make three or four miles per day.

So I'll plan on restocking monthly, with a two-week reserve.

Posted: **Wed Oct 01, 2008 7:26 pm**

Eric Nyre wrote:I would suggest trying to borrow/ rent whatever boats you're interested and do an easy 200-300 mile upstream trip to make sure things work.

I suspect you'll be looking at a solo that's 17' or longer.

If you want a fun break-in period, we'll be doing our sometime annual Green River to Moab run next March. 120 miles downstream, 48 miles upstream.

Yeh, I definitely want to do some trial runs. I paddle the local Yadkin river by myself when there is no-one to boat with or no whitewater running, and I find I can do 10-12 miles upstream, and then back, in a 5- or 6-hour day in my 12'8" solo whitewater boat. Gradient Maybe 10'- or 15'/mile (I don't really remember), so I'm fairly confident that with a fast long boat I could average 20 m/day up the Potomac (which I am very familiar with) at average winter flows. The Missouri and the Madison would be exploratory for me, and everything else would be downriver paddling.

I'd love to boat the Green/Colorado with you, unless I am still hanging onto my job next spring. Is that Horsethief and Ruby canyons? I've been wanting to run the Utah secions of those two rivers!

Posted: **Wed Oct 01, 2008 7:29 pm**

Alan B wrote:In your postings so far, you haven't mentioned poling for your upstream travels...

Good point. I really need to get a pole and a breakdown sea-kayak paddle to take with me.

Then, once I get a boat that's stable enough to stand in, practice poling. I'll bet it's quite an art.

Posted: **Wed Oct 01, 2008 7:32 pm**

kaz wrote:The AC/DC has some rocker and it's not as fast as the HEN. The HEN can't carry any gear other than a water bottle. The AC can easily handle 350 lbs of paddler and gear.
JKaz

I'll keep the AC/DC on my list of candidates. As I get close to being ready to buy, I'll call and consult.

Posted: **Wed Oct 01, 2008 11:08 pm**

Oci-One,

Check out the Hemlock Canoe Works SRT. Dave Curtis is a master of composite construction and the canoe's designer knows a bit about moving/whitewater hull dimensions as well.

Carry on,

Kevin

Posted: **Thu Oct 02, 2008 1:07 am**

Wow, starting at Fletcher's and going upstream! Impressive!

Of course, I see that you only have .6 miles of portage on the Potomac listed -- and that at Difficult Run. I'd assume you're not planning to attain Great Falls (or even Little Falls in a loaded boat)? I'd imagine the stretch from Little Falls to Brookmont Dam wouldn't exactly be a picnic. And it's not like attaining Wet Bottom or O-Deck is exactly easy. Man, you've got your work cut out for you!

Best of luck,

Alden

Posted: **Thu Oct 02, 2008 1:16 am**

That's one heck of a trip. Write a book to further fund the rest of your retirement?

C-Forum

So, will one of these Millbrook boats work for my trip?

So, will one of these Millbrook boats work for my trip?