C-Forum

So....who blames there last swim on outfitting? Mine always seems to loosen up creeking for some reason. It is way harder to roll when your butt is 6" out of the seat. At least thats what I tell my kayak buddies after they clean up my yardsale.

ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I forgot how many times I swam at Downriver Nats this year (SBroam, PAC & PhilCanoe will probably remind me*) They were ALL caused by outfitting! I set the boat up to race, not to roll


* The photos are NOT of a swim. That was a PIN. The boat was still upright & there was no water under it. I stepped out of the boat to get it off the mountain & back into the river....just where did that river go?

I blame my last 3 swims on outfitting. I simply can't stay in a C1 with thigh straps.

Does anyone have a good solution for this? I really don't want to use seatbelts in my creekers and river runners but I can't find a good alternative.

kneeler, do your straps run diagonally, from back near hip to front about 6" back from knees? This orientation is shown in several of the c-1 conversion or outfitting photos on cboats.net. It results in a wide, more secure hold on your thighs, and it is both easier to get in and under, and safely out of, such straps. The other thing to check is whether your straps are tight when dry, but then, when water soaks in, they get too loose. This is true of Nylon straps. Usually it is best to wet them by hand when you first get in, so that they can be adjusted to be snug when wet.

Good knee location, with cups and knee spreader blocks, can help keep your knees from swimming outward and inward when you need to roll. Finally, a small "step" behind your rear end can help keep you in place.

Mark T. and I took a Mad River ME OC2 down the Bottom Moose on the Saturday of MooseFest 2008. We had planned on running it to the portage after Double Drop and then switching to plastics. We had great lines, but both sets of thigh straps ended up torquing so much that the double backed plastic clasps were seriously failing. I had those NOC straps installed, which I've used before. We ripped out at least one D ring too. Oh yeah, and cracked the fairly new ash gunwales on one side.

Needless to say we both spent some time in the water. We did pull off some sweet lines despite swimming a couple of times each.

Well at least I have a winter project replacing the gunwales, I was thinking of going to vinyl.

Sorry about the pics of my butt boating buddies. There are a few shots of us on Fowlersville and Funnel. The best pic is the one of Funnel in my opinion.
http://picasaweb.google.com/mzakutan/MooseFestBenSPics#
and a few in this album
http://picasaweb.google.com/mzakutan/MooseFest2008#

- Mark Z.

I like to blame every swim on my outfitting, regardless of the truth behind the matter.

Actualy, I never move at all in my C-1. my straps run almost perfectly perpendicular to my thighs and keep me really well pinned in.

Me, I borrowed someone else's CU-Fly, he's a good 5 stone heavier than me, he doesn't need hip pads to roll it, I was catapulted clean out the boat when I powerflipped!

I don't know about everybody else, but my swims lately have been because I'm too old and fat!!

Not having a bomber roll in my Taureau made for more swims then I needed to take this past season. John Graye use to tell me, just don’t go over, but that strategy doesn’t seem to work for me.

I realize technique is important and I think I have that down for the most part, when I do go for a roll versus when I purposely bail out.

In terms of outfitting, I sometimes wonder:

Is my bulkhead outfitting tight enough and come up my thigh far enough, yet still let me out if I need to get out? Gabe, you made me think about that with you butt off of the seat comment. My butt for sure comes up during the rolling process.

Are my feet laying flat under the foot pegs versus pushing on the front of foot pegs a problem? I can’t stand having my feet up.

Is my saddle to high at 7.5”? I hope not, not sure my knees can take a lower saddle.

Or as John suggested, does my rolling problem have more to do with conditioning and flexibility? Not that my conditioning is terrible, but I am not as lean or as flexible as I was in my younger years. Unfortunately, I didn't paddle a canoe in my younger years to compare.

I am curious are there older beer drinking paddlers that are not in perfect physical condition that can roll consistently? Or are you consistent rolling guys all ripped?

One last question for Taureau owners, do you think the Taureau is harder to roll then your other boats or is this something in my head? I am going to compare my Skeeter and the Taureau this winter in the pool. I at least want to eliminate my goofy swims in the easier rolling spots on the river.

I am very tight with Northwater straps, they run right above the knee and higher up on the thigh. Also, have a minicell machine that spreads my knees wide so that when I flip I can tense then knees and I don't move a bit. To a butt boater I might say that"dam outfitting is why..." In 1990 I did get "Hoovered" out of a Cudamax when I dropped into House Rock on the Grand and got pinwheeled several times. I ended up on the shore wearing my skirt not understanding what had just happened. After previewing my post is the site able to drop the n of "dam- outfitting?"

AJ,

I'm a self-taught, out-of-shape, class-III hack, weekend warrior, and my roll is reliable; no worse than the rest of my strokes anyway.

When I borrow other people's boats and have trouble with outfitting it's usually related to not having good knee straps/contact - any slippage in the knees and my roll suffers.

Sometimes I might be bothered by thigh straps that are too low on my legs to hold me in well, but to me, the most important outfitting is having solid contact to the hull with my knees.

That I'm not in great shape doesn't seem to matter, but better flaxibility would probably help.

PY.

AJ wrote: My butt for sure comes up during the rolling process.

Is my saddle to high at 7.5”? I hope not, not sure my knees can take a lower saddle.

Or as John suggested, does my rolling problem have more to do with conditioning and flexibility? Not that my conditioning is terrible, but I am not as lean or as flexible as I was in my younger years. Unfortunately, I didn't paddle a canoe in my younger years to compare.

I am curious are there older beer drinking paddlers that are not in perfect physical condition that can roll consistently? Or are you consistent rolling guys all ripped?

I caught the spike this morning (flow spiked from 2,220 to 14,800cfs ) http://waterdata.usgs.gov/nc/nwis/uv?cb ... o=02080500 It gets a little pushy so you better bring your roll. After a few surfs that ended in violent, unplanned enders My lap-belt loosened a little. The next violent, unplanned ender had my seat off the seat while trying to roll. I was having a lot of trouble in big, fast waves & even thought about swimming, but I still had air & decided to hang in there (It always takes more time to swim out of a boat than to roll it). After 50 yards or so, the waves got smaller & I was able to roll up into a bow pirouette Way cool if you plan it that way, but this is survival paddling & I did not want to be on the bow. I got the boat back down, found the eddy & tightened the belt.

7.5" is fine. That's what my Sith is & that's my lowest seat.

At 5'7" & 200lbs, I don't have to fight off the women anymore. Add a couple of thick layers under the drysuit & I'm even less flexible That said, I have a very good roll. Other than that downriver OC racer, I haven't had a swim in a couple of years, other than those after breaking paddles Yes, I realize I've just jinxed myself & will probably be swimming shortly

AJ wrote:...
I am curious are there older beer drinking paddlers that are not in perfect physical condition that can roll consistently? Or are you consistent rolling guys all ripped?
...

My rolling consistency has far more to do with my head than my physique. I've never been "ripped" (in the 6 pack ab sense) but have a very reliable roll, except when I haven't been paddling as often and lose confidence. A couple of rolls and time on the water usually fix that back up.

Flexibility, technique, and mindset are key (I have the order reversed there) - having some upper body strength will let you cheat a little. Being "ripped" means you have less dead weight to get up!

My last swim was because my skirt impoloded, that should count, right? however trying to get out of the boat was an issue because of my outfitting being maybe a little too tight.
B

I am curious are there older beer drinking paddlers that are not in perfect physical condition that can roll consistently?
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Don't worry my friend, beer is good for you. Nevermind those vegetarians and supposedly well-eating folks pretending you should stop.

http://hotlist.uk.msn.com/hotlist/101-y ... athon.aspx

Drifting a little bit but still in the subject, I am driving a prelude for 2 years, like it but find tippy as hades, always told myself i'll get used to it and in fact, that is taking place slowly but surely.

Last month I bought a C1 dagger ultrafuge converted. Ran a river I knew well with it, one with many class IV drops and even a funny fall to jump but with always some space after each drop for recovery. Didn't want to run anything too dangerous at first.

I was pretty right being careful on that point, since I falled pretty much each drops, rolled though, swam only once (first drop) when I lost my paddle jammed in a crack.

There you go with some footage, i'm sure you'll have a good time laughing at these.

http://www.slitchkayak.com/video/assomption.html

Once again told self i'll get used to that new funky boat but then realized that the way the bulkhead is made I got my knees pretty close together in this new thing... Is this part of the reason why I feel so dam tippy in that boat? I am well strapped in there no way to woggle around but still can't seem to stand straight...

And I know my technique is poor no need to bash at me did that already!

Let me know what you think!