C-Forum

Just Curious.

What kind hull design is preferred for c1?
Does the same hull serve you well for creeking and playing or is it the decks & volume that make the differance between the two types of paddling.

I feel the market would be best served with a dedicated river runner that would be classIV creek capable. It'd have to fit a wide range of paddlers without coming in two or three sizes though. Tough bill to fill. One thing I've noticed with my double bladed freinds is that many prefer a boat that can move and not just resurface. Example... one of my bud's was considering a JK Rocker but went with the Pyranha Karnali instead because it actually has edges and has a better overall feel when you aren't running the super steep... super aerated stuff. Even if it doesn't... it should at least feel like it's doing "high performance" things. If I were to design a C1... that would be a big priority. Big and bulbous round hulls designed for plunging off big gnarly drops... blah. No thanks. Make mine fun. As far as comparable conversions out there... the LL Remix or the Karnali would be a good platform to start getting ideas from.

what he said.

i feel playboating is dead

For single bladers hull speed is key, especially for us mere mortals; and that translates almost directly to length. There was nothing basically wrong with the Atom hull but the deck left a lot to be desired. Start with something in the tenish foot range and blow it up to near 80 gal. and 26 plus inches in width and you got a good start. Maybe think the WS Z on steroids?

The Finkenmeister is, as far as I am conmcerned at least at my weight (185 lbs) a great compromise. It has good speed, acceleraten ncely, nice edges that can be used either to help tracki or to carve on, it's extermely maneuvrable, even more so consideringit's over 9 ft long, has tons of flare for bomber secondary stability, a peaked bow with nice volume that resurfaces very nicely, a slle low volume stern that allows pivot turns and that engages just enough when punching holes to help push the boat through without stern endering.
Once I had the outfitting dialled in, it felt just right to me. I have since tried out many other riverrunners/creekers, but I haven't yet found anything I would trade it in for. Never felt that it was the boat that was holding me back.
The only drawback in my opinion is that it's not very expedition friendly, i.e. the bow and stern are hard to access to load it with gear.
That said, I wonder what the Fat Boy would have been like ...

As far as playboat/riverrunner, the Shaggy Sith is IT!
Good speed at 8ft length, extremely stable, surfs like a dream, spins and carthwheels nicely, bow and stern squirts like nothing, yet it's predictable and forgiving enough even in big water that I felt, even at my mediocre skill level absolutely at ease taking it down the Upper Gauley.

TGG!

Larry Horne wrote:i feel playboating is dead

i disagree... but we're talking about a something c-boaters might actually buy

was the Atom a terrible boat? yup... but I've raced it in the past few years for amusement and it's not that bad... would I do more than that in it... not likely.

is there room for a great deal of improvement...?

lord yes

the great gonzo wrote:The Finkenmeister is a compromise. It acceleraten ncely, edges help tracki extermely maneuvrable consideringit's over 9 ft tons flare bomber secondary stability peaked bow volume resurfaces slle volume stern pivot engages punching endering.
Once outfitting dialled right. I have riverrunners/creekers, but I haven't yet found anything holding me back.
The drawback opinion is expedition friendly, i.e. the bow stern are hard gear.
That said, I wonder what the Fat Boy would have been like ...

As far as playboat/riverrunner, IT!
Good speed at 8ft length, extremely stable, surfs like a dream, spins and carthwheels nicely, bow and stern squirts like nothing, yet it's predictable and forgiving enough even in big water that I felt, even at my mediocre skill level absolutely at ease taking it down the Upper Gauley.

TGG!

Yeah... ditto that...

Louie wood be's prowd

I agree with what others have said. A solid river runner with surfing, manueverable but with good tracking. Playboating is far from dead but I think that in playboating, there are so many designs and variables in what peope want that doing conversions of K1 is the route to go there. To be commercially viable, it would need to be a river runner.

My humble 0.02...

There are two craft "needed" by the "mainstream" C1 community that MIGHT be worth building in plastic:
1) A creek boat of various sizes. The Fink really fills this, if it came in, say, three sizes, but no one is importing enough of them, and it is a different style than most here are used to for creeks (comparing design to kayaks folks convert).
2) An updated Atom. Those of us in glass can harp all we want that it is superior, and it's not that hard to MISS rocks, but some folks will never believe how durable newer boats (such as the Sith, or a Viper) are these days... and / or like hitting rocks:) Likewise it would need multiple sizes to really make folks happy.

In my view the way forward for all but creek boats is glass / kevlar / carbon. But given the abuse a creek boat needs to take, plastic just makes sense. And yes, I would have liked to see the Fatboy too! I'm guessing the Fink didn't help that happen....

Well, when I posted my response I guess I overlloked the word 'rotomolded' .
As far as rotomolded C1's are concerned, I agree with Adam.
They only type of rotomolded boat I am personally interested in is a creekboat. For everything else, I am much happier paddling a light weight and stiff composite boat.
That said, from a gereric C1 maket point of view I think a riverunner with some creeking potential would have the best chance of selling in reasonable numbers.
Something along the lines of shortened a Atom, with a some edges or rails, a bit more rocker and more volume in the bow might be a good start. Multiple sizes would be a must, I think.

Judging by the interest people showed in the Martikan in plastic, maybe there would be a market for a rotomolded C1 slalom boat?
Dragorossi/Rainbow kayaks recently launched a rotomolded Slalom K1 that seems to get some traction in the market.

I wonder how a somewhat redesigned Finkenmeister would paddle that had the hull redesigned along the design ideas presented in the Wheelboy (Fatboy hull seemed to follow the same idea).
Everything else on the Finkenmeister works fine. It would be nice though to have it in multiple sizes.

TGG!



TGG!

yes, it should be something between a redesigned Fink (had one sold it) with better rolling - and a Remix (have 2)

I think no matter what design it is it will be a hard sell. There are so many kayaks out there just waiting to be converted. I agree that a river runner/creeker would be great, but most of the kayak versions of these work pretty well as C boats, as they are bigger already. A playboat would have a limited audience but that is where kayak conversions lack the C factor, there are a few good options. I think more of a river runner/ playboat C specific might sell better as there (until recently) is a lack of good C boat friendly kayak designs in this realm. boats like the X and Z and Pyranha Inazone type boats, something like those but built more for the C. I think there is such a limtied # of people even interested in C boating in general that the hardcore playboaters find a kayak to convert and it works and they can also find a creek boat that works too. It seems to be that the majority of C boaters are kind of 'old school', maybe I'm wrong? I think a playful river runner would fit the bill nicely. I have a converted playboat and creeker and they seem to work fine, I however am still looking for that ultimate playful river runner, currently using an X (which is for sale by the way http://cboats.net/cforum/viewtopic.php?t=7960377 ) but find that these designs just don't fit the kneeler very well. anyway thats all I got.
B

I'm going to agree with cbcboat - there are a lot of good kayaks to convert these days. You'd have to have a pretty compelling design to have a good seller. A really nice, playful river runner might be it - something for all of the Atom / Cascade / Slasher paddlers to replace their aging boats with and a platform for the less agressive open boaters (interested in decked boats) to migrate to. But... it's got to be a lot better than a Remix, GT, Z, etc... I think it should be able to float the larger paddler well, as they seem to have a somewhat harder time finding friendly conversions.

That's what I'd be interested, leastwise.

Having just finished my 3rd conversion I am dying for a modern off the shelf c1. No kayak will ever be a perfect c1. Even after I do all the work with the foam and glue. Now I have to order a custom skirt so it won't come off every time I lean too far. Give me a decent sub 8 foot river runner and a playboat and I'm in. The volume is not balanced as well as it could be and I have all these screw holes and extra coaming and crap to deal with. Not to mention if I ever want to resell it I have to keep an extra kayak seat laying around taking up space.

And as far as getting kayakers to come over. That will never happen until they can go into a shop and demo the boat. Buying a boat to convert is daunting and incomprehensible. Until converted kayaks are so prevalent they can have easy access they will never even consider switching. Most people I paddle with have never seen a c1 and can't even grasp the idea.

For a historical perspective, I went to a C1 Concordia in the mid-90's and Andy Bridge was asking the same question and getting very similar responses.

If Andy couldn't get a new design made then, I doubt it'll happen now unless the manufacturing costs have come down.