Grand Canyon Canoe?

funkidreadz · Post by **funkidreadz** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 4:51 am

Hey Cboats,
I need your advice. I am lucky enough to have a place on a Canyon trip next month, the question is, should I take my Spark or my SpanishFly? I will be paddling with 10 kayakers and a support oar raft.
I loved my 'Fly in Nepal last year but faniced something a bit quicker for the flats, so I'll take my Spark I though. Last week a friend of mine was like "no no! take the 'Fly, it's way better." Now for sure I trust my friend but I am really in two minds.
What should I do?
Thanks in advance for your pearls of wisdom,
James

Alan B · Post by **Alan B** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 5:29 am

I did the grand in May of 2008. I paddled an Ocoee and have paddled the Spark quite a bit but not the Fly or other X class boats much. If you paddle, play and roll up in big water, on a par with good play 'yakers, than the fly might be a great choice. But the argument against the fly is that the Grand is not all that much about the paddling. It's the whole scene, the hiking, etc. I play a lot on lower volume rivers but for me there was not much surfing or playing on the Grand. Run the drops, fight the funny water, and push the flats... I sat on the tube of several rafts, with my legs in my boat or tied up and giving the rower a break. I don't think a Spark would have changed that strategy much, just made things somewhat easier. I know lots of OCer's that have run the Grand many times but I don't really get it. When I go again in 2011, I will row the whole thing or split canoeing and rowing 50/50. It will be nice to not be on my knees for 16 days. Running the Selway, Middle Fork of the Salmon, the Lochsa, etc., THAT is fun shat. Well, just my opinion... have a great trip!

Craig Smerda · Post by **Craig Smerda** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 2:24 pm

Get in touch with Eli... he just did it and I think he took a Fly

Later James!

cadster · Post by **cadster** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 5:46 pm

I've boated the whole way is a trad OC1, SOAR tandem, and a kayak and enjoyed all three. I like being in my boat all the time, it's more fun for me than sitting on a raft and I get a sense of completion.

The OC1 was a lot of fun in the big waves, but there are windy days where filling it with water is the only way to make progress. The rafts will have just as much trouble with the wind.

A bigger boat will smooth out the squirrelly water.

markzak · Post by **markzak** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 8:02 pm

I took a Dagger Atom down the GC this July. I was hesitant about taking the Spanish Fly because I was worried about taking on too much water through the rapids and spending the whole trip paddling to shore to bail (no electric bilge obviously). Looking back though, I probably would change my mind and take the Spanish Fly, because the rapids are longish at times, but completely doable and usually with pretty good recovery eddies at the bottom.

And I disagree with everyone else whos done the GC, there TONS of play, TONS of it!!!! You just have to either have the balls to toss yourself into a munchy wave/hole, or you have to be happy surfing on the fly. And the few eddy service features that you will find (mostly dependent on levels), are absolutely awesome! Very few holes on the entire grand canyon that won't let you out eventually, which means everything else is playable.

I'd do it again in my spanish fly.

jrsh92 · Post by **jrsh92** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 11:10 pm

Markzak, what're your feelings on the Atom in big water like this? I'm just currently getting the hang of the boat and it seems like it has sufficient volume to not get bumped around too badly, it's not a small boat. Even in the lower volume parts of the boat there is volume... but it's ultimately shaped thinly and isn't big and round like a creek boat which I have as impression of as a good big water river runner (due to being able to punch or float over big stuff without just getting dunked)... what does experience tell you about it?

Eli · Post by **Eli** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 1:18 am

Hey James,

I paddled the Grand in a Vertige X and I enjoyed the luxury of carrying some of my gear with me. I was planning to be out there this past March in my Fly, but work got in the way. My roommate, Jake, paddled my Fly down for me and loved it. If you only have one raft...I'd probably take the Spark. However, if you are going to be cruising through the flats on a raft, the Fly fits better (doesn't get in the way of the oars) and is better for the surf that you will find. Most of the waves will be catch on the fly, but there are a few great spots with good eddy access. I ended up kneeling in a kayak that I camstrapped myself into at these spots.

Probably didn't help much...both will be awesome. Spark is better overall, but you will miss the Fly in select spots.

Come to WV/NC when you get off the water!

funkidreadz · Post by **funkidreadz** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 6:14 am

Thank you all for your advice. However the decision has just been made for me by the airplane company, a 3.5m boat hahaha!
So SpanishFly it will be.
I am well looking forward to the Canyon,
Later Cboats
James

markzak · Post by **markzak** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 2:59 pm

JRsh regarding the Atom on the Grand Canyon and in high water....

Its an interesting boat... I would have preferred more volume for some more punch...the boat does get "subbed" out in holes causing a complete loss of momentum... because of the flat decks and the lower volume ends I really found that by keeping it just a bit on edge you get a good bit more punch out of it then if you just drive it flat on its bottom, so if you ever worry about the punch try leaning a bit onto your onside and give it a solid forward stroke.

Other than that, its a fun boat to paddle, the flat deck does lead to more flips then I'm used to on a rounder creekboat style C1. But the Atom also surfs pretty darn well, so there are certain tradeoffs. For sure though, I'd call the Atom a unique boat.

jrsh92 · Post by **jrsh92** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 7:34 pm

markzak wrote: ...the boat does get "subbed" out in holes causing a complete loss of momentum... because of the flat decks and the lower volume ends I really found that by keeping it just a bit on edge you get a good bit more punch out of it then if you just drive it flat on its bottom, so if you ever worry about the punch try leaning a bit onto your onside and give it a solid forward stroke.

This is an interesting point... I tend to paddle, even on flatwater, leaning just a bit to my onside-- I find it to be a little more comfortable or natural feeling than keeping the boat flat, maybe it's that I'm using a relatively short paddle (51"-- not TOO short, but I got used a 54", using it for a long time) and leaning in helps me "dig" more... anyone have any thoughts on whether this is inefficient, efficient, a good thing, a bad thing, etc on flatwater? In whitewater or even choppy lakes, though, I have found in kayaks and canoes alike (haven't got the Atom itself out in anything too serious yet) that a little lean while punching a hole or wave goes a long way... if the boat were totally sideways, you'd present the whole front of it to the incoming water to submerge or just run into and slow down. The boat all the way on it's side is effectively only as "wide" as the boat is "tall" normally, and has more weight to the (now smaller) area of it that's actually hitting the hole head on. That makes good sense and I do it some of the time already...
The usual reason I end up leaning through holes that I do lean through, though, is that I lean a little bit full time full time as I mentioned... in many boats, it creates a stable feel they don't have when level and it always lets you turn fast when you need to, without needing to take the time to get the boat leaning before it "loosens up".. not sure about flatwater but I think this is actually a pretty common practice in whitewater, and it works well for me. As long as you're ready to react quick when you need the boat on the other edge this has many benefits. One issue is that sitting on the onside edge, unlike going flat, means that if you're unprepared for an eddy or something you don't see, you're more likely to be leaning the wrong way than if you're just flat when you can glance past stuff like that... but at least you're leaning so that you'll need a low brace if anything-- lean at an inappropriate time to your offside and you'll be paddling air, briefly before being upside down.
Thanks for the advice

The obnoxiously long Atom commentary that was here is still obnoxiously long, but now it's on the Eddyflower Atom reviews page: http://www.eddyflower.com/ShowBoat.aspx?BoatId=556 so you can read a long (MAYBE useful, but unless you're planning on buying the boat my thoughts are probably irrelevant) ramble by me if you're curious... but you can now avoid it just as easily as well

Marc Evans · Post by **Marc Evans** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 2:45 am

James,

When you return from the Grand, would you please give a trip report on how you liked the SFly on a BIG river? I love my Fly, but the biggest thing I've been on is the Main Salmon (Idaho) at about 7000 cfs (~200 cu meters). Loved having the Fly on that trip, even with the flat water we had. The boat tends to stall and back surf on bigger waves if you don't keep paddling, but that is easily solved - paddle forward.

By the way, you need to do Hermit rapid straight down the middle - the 5th wave in the wave train is 26 feet from bottom to top. At least that is what one of the dory guides told us. I couldn't tell you for sure as I fell out of the raft at the top ot the 4th wave. Too much fun. Have a good time.

Marc

jrsh92 · Post by **jrsh92** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 3:11 am

No, it's a BIG river when a Spark stalls and backsurfs a wave even if you ARE paddling... Broadback at 60,000 CFS, the wave was around 20 feet tall... i sure as hades wasn't paddling that boat in that rapid but it was quite something to see (from an 18 foot paddle cataraft) at least...

TheKrikkitWars · Post by **TheKrikkitWars** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 12:32 pm

jrsh92 wrote:No, it's a BIG river when a Spark stalls and backsurfs a wave even if you ARE paddling... Broadback at 60,000 CFS, the wave was around 20 feet tall... i sure as hades wasn't paddling that boat in that rapid but it was quite something to see (from an 18 foot paddle cataraft) at least...

Now that doesn't sound so unusual or terrible, the Nile had quite a lot of features like that, some more seriously than others. (that was at 3400 cumecs, so 122000 cfs?)

funkidreadz · Post by **funkidreadz** » Fri Sep 18, 2009 6:16 am

@Mark
I will post photos and words on my blog on my return, post a link here and try to include useful info about canoeing the GC.
For now I am too busy enjoying the Soca to start thinking about my next trip
Ciao
James

funkidreadz · Post by **funkidreadz** » Sun Nov 01, 2009 8:58 pm

So back from from an amazing trip down the Grand. the SpanishFly was such a good boat, hitting the hard lines, surfing and easy to fly with. I had thought about taking a Spark but was SO glad I had the 'Fly, yes it slow on the flat but so much more suited to running the large steaming pile of dog doo in the bigger rapids.
Stay tuned for a blog with some fotos and a bit more helpful advice for prospective GC canoeists
Stay safe
James

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Grand Canyon Canoe?

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