C-Forum

http://www.theriverlifestyle.com/2009/1 ... h-drowned/

I wasn't there so I can only comment on what I see on the video. The poor butt boater is followin the American Kayaers rule of never do anything to help yourself, but rather float on your back and wait for your buddies to come to your rescue. I do believe early in that swim I would have been doin by best Jonnie Weismiller ( Michael Phillips for you young punks) impression. I never saw him do a single stoke toward the bank till right near the end when he did make it too the bank. I do like where his buddy took him into a big hole and the swimmer keep both of them in the hole.

I have a different impression. That was big water and I don't think there was a chance he was going to swim to shore. His first real opportunity was the one he got. I remember watching a canoeist swimming in a fast class 2+ continuous rapid once and thinking they would swim out of it. Nope. She went around a bend and out of sight and didn't get out of it until the water began to shallow out. Unfortunately, the swimmer was my wife and she wasn't happy that I just stood there and watched (actually I was repacking a throw rope that had been right on target but she had refused as she went swimming by me early on in the rapid, thinking she could get out on her own). I know when I've swam in big, fast water with holes, you're pretty much at the mercy of the water until it slows down. I agree with the guy's buddy, the swimmer had a cool head and took the best opportunity he had and made good use of it.

I'm in with milkman. After about 2 minutes of swimming these continuously scary stuff (for a swimmer), letting go the other yaker's stern he just grabbed for he realized his budy couldn't do much and he was now almost drowning him too... Cold head you bet.

Continous rapids like that are such a blast... as long as you're in your boat!

Yeah, I have seen much easier rapids that have that characteristic. I was running rapids on the Schoon in NY that were 1/3 mile to 1 mile long. Lots of big waves, easy to handle, but there were very few eddies available for bailing, and they were hard to get to. If one had swamped and had to swim, close underneath were plenty of leg-snagging glacial boulders, and reaching eddies would have been even harder.

Sometimes even in rapids easy to run, self rescue may be rather difficult if it becomes necessary.

Except for Louie. When his boat senses more than 6" of water inside, it automatically beaches on the nearest plausible dumping site.

Except for Louie. When his boat senses more than 6" of water inside, it automatically beaches on the nearest plausible dumping site.

Oh now I understand why he sticks to his taureau so much; that boat is like jolly jumper needs no clue and does all the stuff for itself... How could he hold the camera otherwise?

Lucky Louie and Eddy Jumper what a team

sounds like a good reason to have a pump

Long cold water class III+ swims at higher altitudes SUX....
Not that they don't at lower altitudes...

Louie, you're cracked! That guy was nothing like a bad swimmer.

By the time we saw him in the video, he was already exhausted. The rescue boat couldn't even get them into an eddy, and I don't think it's cause they were bad paddlers! I don't think there's much more they could've done in fast, cold water like that. Not to mention that they looked young, fit and well-geared, and were paddling & rescue instructors.

Having just taking a river rescue course myself last weekend, it really reinforced how physically tiring swimming in continuous whitewater is, and I didn't do it for 4 minutes and wasn't getting recirced in big hydraulics - it's tiring justing crossing the river and catching a few eddies. Unlike the rivers some of you frequent, that was full, fast, continuous and cold - not your pool-and-drop bathtub-warm shorts-and-PFD type of river. It was Idaho, not Mexico.

They even advocate in the video for swimming hard to get yourself out ASAP and specified that they teach people not to rely on others - they're your people Louie (aside from the kayak-thing of course, though you paddled with a ducky guy)!

Well, interpretations of that river & rescue aside, that's one thing we all seem to agree on: you're your own best rescuer.

Pat.

from http://boatertalk.com/forum/BoaterTalk/1704400

Big KUDO's to Mikey for staying clam, but FTW else was he doing to help himself out... and the commentator
was only overing lip-service, remind me not to count on his assistance.

There were several thing's I didn't see:

First off you can ferry while swimming, this is the very first thing to do. Before going to the Michael
Phelps freestyle crawl stroke, and exposing yourself. Just pick a direction, as someone else said head to
the side. Even if you can't get there, you get closer for when opportunity arises.

To Ferry it's just like a boat, except you use backstrokes. And I even do that frog kick (drawing legs
together at same time). It's amazing how good it works. I teach this to everyone - it really truly works.
I usually do the backstroke and frog kicking at the same time, both arms and legs. Your angle is back and
to the side, sound familiar just like in a boat.

The next thing I noticed was all sort of good rocks, you do not have to reach the bank. Just slithering up
on one of those rocks, instead of letting it beat you silly is much better. And if you're going over one,
don't just fall off the back side into that dam hole. Use that same rock to jump over the hole, and into
the backwash. As you're going over and hitting on the rock, (still facing downstream) just lower both legs
and jump across. BTW this works REALLY great at grumpy's ledge hole, on the okey-dokey. Broad jump over
the hole, clean across and keep on trucking downstream.

The other thing (which is harder to do with a kayak paddle) is to use the paddle to swim with. You hold
the shaft like it's a tennis racket, yes an Eastern Forearm Grip. You'll need to get up near one blade,
and get the other up out of the water. This works really well, when holding onto your boat with the other
hand. This is also done with a backstroke, and kicking together with you legs. Sounds redundant doesn't it,
well... it works, really-really-(1more)-really well.

Now if the ferry and rock climbing doesn't work, well then it's Michael Phelps time.

But I'd still go for that up on a rock, in the middle... yes you'll still be out there, but you're buddies
will be real glad, and appreciate the free brew for getting you to the side. You can offer the side of your
body (life-jacket-pfd-padding) to the rock, swimming up onto it. This works really well when it's too slick
to grasp onto. Just like your boat broaching, except you stay up on top. Another proven steep creek move,
is to hold onto your boat and go for the other side. You to one side, the boat to the other. Think approach
stuff heading into FreightTrain (Jones) or Armageddon (Bear), you to one side- the boat to the other... high
nd dry - and your left pecking up the pieces. Been there - done that!!! If you have your paddle, get back
in style the rest.

Also use that boat like a surf board, it'll take those hits better than you. At least it'll complain less.

AND LIKE DECKER said...

Where was the rope!!! A quick throw and it'd be over. Another way - as close as you guys where, is to clip
that dam kayak as you jump out, and push it the the right direction. Just shove it out ups-stream, YES in a
ferry angle (a 45 or something). It'll arc out and he can swim to it, if you're not spot on. I stand beside
it, holding the stern and heave hoe - like throwing a javelin from the rear. You had time to, or else that
rope was not in a very good place to begin with.

Granted - All in all, that was not a good place to swim. But any self-respecting SouthEastern Openboater
would of been over to the side, way before then - going hope no-body-saw that.

OH - One more point - that's a very good reason to wear a full drysuit, instead of some drytop only. He was
floating way higher, than he would of otherwise. A summertime swim is always, a more in the face experience.

Thanks - for sharing.... there's some good karma points, you guy's earned here!!!!

((P-h-o-t-o-n's school of hard knocks))

Thanks Phil, wow a lot of great points. Experience talking here!

I just want to add a little more about swimming with the paddle, for some who may not know... I think this is something everybody should practice in a pool or lake. It is not that obvious at first. I was told early in my WW experiences never to let go my paddle in a swim. You self-rescue and somebody's gonna catch your boat but the paddle can get lost much more easily. So then you want to keep it with you but can't swim with that dang thing!

So yes, you can and it is really efficient but you have to try it first in a calm situation. BTW I do it in front of me myself a lot like a forward stroke, holding close to the blade like phil says, but not on my back. Each one his technique I guess...

Ditto - a lot of good stuff I never would have thought of!

I think the key is to *fight* your way to shore - fight *smart*, mind you, but don't just "go with the flow"...

2me - the key is to ferry... whether in the backstroking forward facing mode, or in a more aggressive Michael Phelps overhand-freestyle-crawl-or 'dawg paddle' mode ... you'd never just try to get to the side while in your boat, not if you really had a need to get there... so it's a no brainer to do the same out of your boat... simply wishing and willing it to happen may help, but I'll put my money (and trust my Life) on using a little helping hand from Mother Nature to get there... it's the same dynamics as in your boat... sure you can draw your boat all the way across the river, given enough downward space.... or as every one learned (around day2-3-or4) ferry over to the side..simple power angled upstream and to the side... it's much more effective to use a river 's force, than to try and overcome it

Well, how much I like the ferry principle myself (not on such a hard water, but anyhow...).
Is that manoevre really possible on this kind of water? I mean, you have serious downstream-V's, pushing you in a certain direction, holes, ... . All kinds of river features compressing water, pushing you in a given direction. I think you need some serious swimming to overcome that, no?

I was taught in some rescue clinic somewhere to do that ferry thing Phil talks about (upstream ferry at 45 degree angle) but use a "windmill" stroke, ie. one crawl stroke, one back stroke turning in the same direction (upstream) as you go. Seems strange but very effective. And go like your life depended on it. IMHO that is what was lacking in the video, none of them seemed to scrambling near hard enough.