Please explain somethings to me

Louie · Post by **Louie** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 2:28 pm

Rules and Guidelines? Well maybe but that ain't the GDI way. Of course to us the Guide line is the line the guy who missed the last eddy just ran.

horizongfx · Post by **horizongfx** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 2:58 pm

bobthepainter wrote:you guys, ARE THE SPORT!! THE PADDLERS AND ,MANURFACTURES...but, don't lump instructors into a bad group of people... most folks paddling don't have the rivers in there back yard as some of you do.. some people only get to paddle 4 or 5 times per year. YOU DON'T GET GOOD WITH THEM ODDS!! and the SCHOOL OF HARD KNOCKS isn't favored by most...true ! to be part of the sport , help promote good will ,by helping out some of the confused ones out here! ... just bashing doesn't do any good..if you have BAD INSTRUCTORS ..OUST THEM OUT.. name names! i'm sure the "ACA" would like to know about them... we are just like any sport, we have rules, and guide lines to make it to the next level . and a helping is way better than pointing fingers.....

Bob, Quit yelling at me ...I'm Sensitive

If I didn't have some sweet whitewater runs in My Backyard I would move...Just sayin'

bobthepainter · Post by **bobthepainter** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 3:00 pm

sorry...

mybad .....it was early

ckingoc1 · Post by **ckingoc1** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 3:07 pm

bobthepainter wrote:you guys, ARE THE SPORT!! THE PADDLERS AND ,MANURFACTURES...but, don't lump instructors into a bad group of people... most folks paddling don't have the rivers in there back yard as some of you do.. some people only get to paddle 4 or 5 times per year. YOU DON'T GET GOOD WITH THEM ODDS!! and the SCHOOL OF HARD KNOCKS isn't favored by most...true ! to be part of the sport , help promote good will ,by helping out some of the confused ones out here! ... just bashing doesn't do any good..if you have BAD INSTRUCTORS ..OUST THEM OUT.. name names! i'm sure the "ACA" would like to know about them... we are just like any sport, we have rules, and guide lines to make it to the next level . and a helping is way better than pointing fingers.....

Most have said there are exceptions. But from what I've seen the rule is right. Also in my opinion ACA is nothing more than another insurance company and does not care about anything but money!

2opnboat1 · Post by **2opnboat1** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 3:08 pm

I am not trying to bash anyone most have good intentions but I feel a little internal bashing will help our sport, it kinda opens eyes and minds up a little bit or aleast makes people think. I love our sport and yes I know some great instructors with papers. It is not as much the instructors themselves as it is the book that most teach by. Yes open boating has more of a curve but does it really have to. Can better easier techniques be taught. Before yall start telling me i am a idiot remember. WE ARE JUST RIDING BIG SLEDS DOWN A HILL, INSTEAD OF SNOW WE USE WATER.

bobthepainter · Post by **bobthepainter** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 3:22 pm

so you would rather have the red cross tranning? or maybe boyscouts .. who else is there? the GDI? ... take a step back.. river safety .. and understanding moving water.. paddle strokes, are the basic tools, but without the fundamentals not too many will go forward to advance the sport.... "to that next level " ....(.i'm asking you for help) in fixing some bad things ,to good ones!.... please help me become a better instructor for the students i'll be teaching

Louie · Post by **Louie** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 3:52 pm

setting examples is our way. both good and bad. have your newbiees watchin with us while the first person run sumthin. There will be all kinds of reviews by those watchin and as each person takes their turn the reviews will continue as each person run. If you can make it out here any time or durnin ALF I think you will see what we are talkin about.

Once again remember we ain't really down on instructors in general, just those who think because they have a piece of paper makes them an expert, we don't even care if they think that it is when they start sayin it that we have an issue.

I almost always provided the bad example.

Walsh · Post by **Walsh** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:16 pm

2opnboat1 wrote:I feel a little internal bashing will help our sport, it kinda opens eyes and minds up a little bit or aleast makes people think. . . . It is not as much the instructors themselves as it is the book that most teach by.

I can only partially agree with you. I can say with confidence (as an ACA-certified instructor myself

) that the ACA certification itself doesn't mean a darn thing. We have all run into paddlers whose greatest resume item is the certification, and I think those are the folks that you you are talking about: Handle with extreme caution. In the worst cases, there are some who seem to suffer from the delusion that the river in some way honors the certification card in their wallet. That's where you cross the line from stupid to dangerous.

As an introduction to whitewater, I bought a Skeeter for $250 with zero knowledge or experience beyond J-stroking a Grumman at summer camp. My learning curve was long, and involved a lot of trial and error. The key mentors who got me through pivotal points were all truly seasoned and dedicated boaters AND certified instructors. Jeff Davis' swiftwater class taught me how to play and learn without getting dead, Mike Aronoff taught me to roll, and (quite a bit later) some guy named Bob retooled my forward stoke, and suddenly I could make the boat "go." In each case, the knowledge imparted came from the years of experience. On the other hand, each mentor had devoted a considerable amount of forethought not just into what he wanted to teach, but how he intended to teach it - and in each case, I benefitted not only from the knowledge, but from the structured presentation.

The cert is no substitute for experience, that's for sure. On the other hand, a great boater is not neccessarily a great teacher. Students have different needs, and the ACA emphasis on curriculum and teaching techniques can be a good resource. Anybody who has seen a terrified novice having useless directions shouted at them on the river by a buddy or spouse can appreciate that.

And yes, the bastards always want more money. Telling them I'm a volunteer doesn't seem to help any.

milkman · Post by **milkman** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:55 pm

I was a pretty good paddler for several years. Then I took a 3-day course from an instructor (ACA certified, but not one to talk about that and this was no ACA standard course). The instructor's approach was to coach. He had both a great eye for seeing what you were doing wrong and some excellent instructional techniques for helping you correct them. I came out from that course a much better paddler, particularly as I practiced what I learned over the next year. I ended up taking two more 3-day sessions with that instructor, each time building on what I had learned before and taking me further.

I think teaching has nothing to do with the credentials and everything to do with the instructor. Obviously the instructor needs to be knowledgable and know good technique--which is often why they go and get credentials. But the instructor needs to be a good teacher and coach as well. Credentials mean little if you can't effectively pass on your knowledge.

I think the best thing most of us can do is take new paddlers under our wing and help them get the basics. Then, when it comes time, if there's another level of good instruction available, point them to it.

craig · Post by **craig** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 8:52 pm

Lot's of good points on this thread. I like milkmans last two sentences !

bobthepainter · Post by **bobthepainter** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 4:31 pm

Lot's of good points on this thread. I like milkmans last two sentences !......... I agree100% and after a long review i see this wasn't about instruction, or instructors. but more of a" jab "at one person, by another. and turned out not to be so funny in the end..

... on the good side it looks like i got a personal invitation to AFL! and I thank you Louie for that! ..I look up to this board as a mentoring place as an openboater and instructor.ALL the information is here ,if you dig it up. unlike any other site on the web ! you have something here you just can't get any place else!!! .... a real openboaters " club"

... and it's good to agree, that we can disagree !!! makes life interesting.

philcanoe · Post by **philcanoe** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 4:36 pm

[img]http://rlv.zcache.com/jane_austen_agree ... xq_400.jpg[/img]

Atucky · Post by **Atucky** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 5:33 pm

A common mistake I see with instruction all the time is that instructors often overwelm students by trying to fix too many things at once, leading to frustration both parties involved. It's best to teach/learn, when someone tells me to work/focus on one or two things at a time.

I see this all the time with kayakers just getting into it. A good kayaker will take the beginner under their wing, and frustrate the heck out of em.

2opnboat1 · Post by **2opnboat1** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 5:55 pm

This was by no means a jab at on person, but more of a jab at the base line of instruction. I know alot of really good instructors who have papers, but the papers dont make the instructor. This was really more me venting, and wantig to know if I was crazy for feeling this way. It just frustrates me to see people get instruction, pay lots of money, and get taught nothing. I feel this is why our sports lagging . But this is just my 2 cents and it dont mean nothing to no one but me.

ezwater · Post by **ezwater** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 6:31 pm

I assume that people with ACA or GDI certification are knowledgeable. But I totally reject the notion that certified people are uniquely qualified to guide the rest of us.

I worked 18 years in the Hartsfield-Jackson of state psychiatric hospitals. Certifiable there meant you were nuts enough to be locked up.