C-Forum

I'm thinking about upgrading to a new PFD when the tax return arrives. My current MTIs and Extrasport either interfere with my cross bow strokes, ride up in a swim unless they're uncomfortably tight or both.

I'm no hair-boater, but I really want to improve my skills, so who knows what the future holds. I'd like to sink some cash into a good PFD that'll last me a good long time instead of continuing this series of half-@ss ones. Swiftwater rescue training is definitely in my future, but for now, I'm just looking for a solid PFD. I've heard folks actively discourage getting a rescue ready PFD if one hasn't had training yet, but having the integrated harness should help aid a rescue if God forbid, *I* get in a bad situation, correct? Or depending on the PFD, just remove the extra equipment until I'm ready for it?

The Astral Tempo 200 and Kokatat Ronin (Ronin Pro) both look interesting since I'm specifically looking for something that has a good waistband that can cinch up somewhat low on my torso. What do you folks think of these PFDs? Any suggestions for others I should seek out and try on? (160 lbs, skinny chest, average torso length).

Thanks,

Phreon

Edit to add: Amazon has the regular Ronin on sale for $124. Would the extra $90 for the Pro be worth it?

I just got the Ronin Pro and haven't had a chance to really try it out on whitewater yet. My first impression is that it sits low which works really well in a C-1-- it doesn't interfere with shoulder movement like some higher/longer PFD's designed for kayaks do, and because you're in a C-1 the flotation lower on your body isn't interfering with anything-- plus lower flotation of similar volume should float you better. It's very comfortable and doesn't seem to restrict movement-- again, though, this impression is from a relatively non-intense flatwater paddle.
I got the vest as a present; otherwise I might not have gone for one with the harness because of the advice against getting a rescue vest untrained. However once I have it, the Ronin Pro is really nice overall, not just with regard to the harness.
As for the harness, I do see where people are coming from saying that one shouldn't get the jacket without knowing swiftwater rescue techniques-- it looks like a good way to clip yourself onto something and there are soooo many things that could go wrong once you've foolishly attached yourself to anything in whitewater. However, I predict getting around this pretty easily-- I won't use the harness until I get instruction for it. The harness itself makes the PFD no more dangerous. The desire to do something with the harness creates danger. You are obviously conscious of the risks involved with rescue and you're actively thinking about them-- the fact that you're saying it might not be a good idea to get a rescue vest because you don't know about rescue techniques suggests that you're not going to be the guy who gets one and then uses it untrained.
That said, there's no reason I'd know too much about these things, so wait for a second opinion from someone who DOES have the experience.

You might check out the Astral GreenJacket. I found one on sale before Christmas for $158 at NOC.

Kokatat ronin pro for me. alternatively, if you want something even less restrictive, galasport does one for c1 but you'll need a seperate quick release belt and or harness.

There is NO reason not to have a Rescue (Type V) PFD, they're generally the best designed buoyancy aids for WhiteWater use.

So long as you know not to go using the Harness without either proper training or under the supervision of someone who is experienced and has your trust.

I'd rate the Ronin Pro (I broke mine, wish I had another), or the Astral GreenJacket (My current choice) as the best two buoyancy aids on the market today if you're paddling C-Boats a lot.
They tend to sit more naturally than a lot of the other "white water kayaking" PFD's and are far ahead of more recreational or outfitter oriented PFD's in terms of fit and ergonomics.

As Mike said there is the Galasport C1 Comp vest, which is nice to wear, but a bit basic (not even a pocket).

Ronin Pro has been great for me since I got it last spring. At the time I hadn't had any swiftwater rescue training, but left the belt on and just didn't use it - other than fastening it. Since then I have taken SRT traning and am glad I have a rescue vest.

If you are concerned about having the rescue belt without training, its easy enough to just take it off...just like taking a belt off of a pair of pants, more or less.

Iin terms of its functionality, it has been pretty good. Only minor issue i've noticed is when wearing my dry suit, my left sleeve sometimes catches/rubs on the top of the zipper when i'm doing my right-handed onside stroke (mind you i think this is mostly later in the day when my form has slipped a bit).

Price-wise, I paid $150 Canadian (sale price, regular $200 I think) for mine at the Paddle Shack here in Ottawa. Mountain Equipment Coop - a Canadian chain store - sells them for $220 now but i recall the price being lower when I got mine; in any case, $214 US might be a little steep considering the typically lower prices in the US and the exchange rate. Also, many PFDs can accomodate an add-on rescue belt which you can buy for around $35 (Northwater, again at Mountain Equipment Coop). So paying $90 extra for the 'Pro' might not be a good investment...that said, I'm not certain if the regular Ronin can accomodate an add-on rescue belt or not.

-Dan

I am an ACA swiftwater rescue instructor but I try not to get preachy about it.

I have mixed feelings about rescue PFD's.

The short answer is you should definitely try one on for fit and comfort before you buy.

They tend to be bulky and that can be a real issue when rolling. I paddle both kayak (don't tell Louie) and canoe. The bulk doesn't seem to be an issue for me when rolling a kayak but it does tend to kill my canoe roll and I'm not the only one who has said that. At one point my canoe roll was completely gone. I ditched the rescue PFD, put on my old one, and went nine out of ten, then hit #10 on the second try (dizzy by then).

I haven't tried it in my C-1 so dunno.

There are some clear benefits to having a more rugged PFD and one with more flotation but as seems to be the case with all things boating, it's all in the compromises. With some training, wearing a rescue PFD probably adds a factor of safety to your group. It might actually add some safety for you too but it also adds some risk as some of the gadgets add to the chances of getting snagged on something.

Shameless plug, yeah, taking a swiftwater rescue class is probably worth killing a weekend. At least you'll be on the water most of the time!

Ken Dubel

I'm not dead set on the Ronin or it's ilk, let alone a rescue vest. I wouldn't mind a somewhat more traditional PFD as long as it stays the hades out of the way of my cross strokes and doesn't require a death grip to keep it from riding up. My extrasport has the knife lash point so high I wind up with a raw spot on the inside of my right bicep if I paddle long enough. I'll admit it, I'm skinny and have a stovepipe for a torso...ALL of my PFDs ride up unless I cinch 'em tight until I can barely breath; it's really annoying.

I'm an open boater, so by my logic, my options should be wide as long as the PFD isn't super bulky in a way that could somehow snag on a roll attempt. Heck, would a regular ol' Norge or even Ms.Fit work? I have time before the ol refund arrives, so I'll have plenty of chances to try on PFDs (though the ones I own now seemed good when I tried 'em on)

Thanks for the info so far,

Phreon

I don't know anyone that doesn't paddle without a rescue Pfd. (or NW style towbelt)

How are you guys rigging your towlines? That's the main usage of a harness. I've seen many potentially simple gear retrievals turn into gong shows and at times endanger people for lack of towlines.
It could also provide a rescuer with a quick secure point to pull your butt in from.
No one will ever expect you to do a live bait rescue just because you have the gear.
And if you really believe that you yourself would attempt a rescue above your level of training, skills or comfort level, just because you have the gear - then maybe take up a new sport.

Please consider a rescue vest and training.

My 2 cents .... now I'll jump over to the "Which jacket thread" as mine is due for replacement.
Happy New Year t' All

I used my tow teather last weekend for the first time from an OC, Never again. I threw it away when I got home. The whole idea of "I got your boat'" is wrong in my "new"enlightened mind. If you can't run the rapid, why should "I" try to bring you your boat? Do you really want to be attached to someone elses gear? Not me, I will however, get a rope out and try to help get the boat to "you" while standing on dry land. I enjoy rope work and rescue, but not at my own expense. I have an Astrel Rescue pfd and I like it, for the most point, a few too many straps hanging out though.
Has anyone been recirculated due to excessive bouyance? National Falls gave me a new understanding of the hydrolics ability to hold a "swimmer". I had to ball-up to get out and that took a few seconds to kick in. "Swim like hades," through the rapids, but it may not help you get out of the holes. Of course I am a southeastern boater and the biggest water that I have paddled is the Gauley or the Animas at flood. I would rather have a pfd that "helped" float me rather than one that would float my arse down stream with no help from me. I do not want to detour anyone from getting a rescue pfd, just know how and where to use it. I do not want to stear anyone in the wrong direction when it comes to safety, take some classes. Learn the pros and cons, but don't be a hero that we read about in the obituaries.
that's my 2 cents, i'm done. enough gloom & doom...
Let's go boating!

Hey I don't bring anyone their boat. But as long as I think you'd also take reasonable steps (never jeopradizing your own safety) to help out your fellow man, I'll get your boat to shore. It's good for Karma and more importantly - good for beer.

But more commom to most is towing your OWN boat in. It's a helluva lot easier swimming with both hands.
And the easier a person can do their own recovery, the less others need be involved.
Like a live bait - don't attempt a tow beyond your ability and at the first risk to your safety, you pull that little toggle thingy.

Up here, losing a boat can get pretty serious. Often there's no walking to the nearby road.
Thus recovery "fees" can get quite steep, the knowing this keeps most people within their limits, prepared, and doing all they can to be self reliant.
"Hey buddy! I got your boat here, downstream! But I kinda feel like I'm losing my grip on it - What's it worth to ya?"

Hope I don't get long winded, but here goes....

The flying Elvis's, a bunch of Elvis impersonators who parachute as a group into Vegas and whatnot had a video guy who was one of the most experienced parachutest in the bunch. He'd video everyone exiting the plane and then jump and video the group on the way down. Oh, about 5000 jumps into his parachuting career he calmly video'd the 50 or so guys in Elvis drag jumping out the door. Each one looked at him and waved, then he jumped... without his parachute. The video showed the other Elvis's motioning to him about his lack of parachute... up goes the hand to feel for the chute...and he then freaked out... and assumed room temperature. That was the end of him.

Last spring, during runoff, I was caught a bit off guard by a noob showing up to run a moderately easy run with us at a cranking level. Normally I'm the tow boat, when paddling my creeker K1 with my rescue vest and pig tail. That day I was in my little playboat K1. Long story short, he swims.. no airbags.. I hook it up and start to tow and then remember what boat I'm in.. his boat is sinking, hits funny water and swings around and knocks me over then parks on top of my over turned K1. At that point I'm yanking that quick release and attempting to roll, nada. Pig tail refuses to release from back of vest and me and the two boats hit a very nasty strainer with me still upside down. According to the video camera that I had attached to me, I was under for right at 2 minutes, stuck and unable to get his boat off me. I couldn't let go enough of the sunken log enough to cut my way free of the boat that was pulling me deeper into the sunken tree. Finally I just climbed that dam tree till I reached air. The water temps were low and I was not dressed properly from the waste down (shorts). Hypothermia started to set in and about that time help arrived.

So, how do those two stories fit together? Well, I paddled a lot(I'm up to 174 so far this year) and that pig tail had somehow gotten twisted around so that it formed a bite in the webbing at the D ring, keeping it from releasing. My lack of attention to detail in ref to the proper set up of the quick release belt on my rescue vest nearly killed me, thankfully it wasn't a parachute that I didn't check. I still wear a rescue vest, but I make dam sure that the webbing is properly routed EVERY time I put it on.

Learn from my, and Elvis' mistake. Complacency kills.

I do like using the pig tail when I'm in a K1, but in an OC1 its just not long enough for me to be comfortable towing a boat. I just snowplow them towards shore.

That's why a rescue harness is not to be used as a towline; if you want to tow things; wear a tow-belt!

They're designed for the job. Despite looking similar, the harness is designed for use in situations with very large fairly static forces, so it won't release properly with small, erraticly moving loads attached; a towline will (plus because the tow is sewn in not looped in like a cow's tail, if it twists it won't form a bight in the webbing.

TheKrikkitWars wrote:That's why a rescue harness is not to be used as a towline; if you want to tow things; wear a tow-belt!

They're designed for the job. Despite looking similar, the harness is designed for use in situations with very large fairly static forces, so it won't release properly with small, erraticly moving loads attached; a towline will (plus because the tow is sewn in not looped in like a cow's tail, if it twists it won't form a bight in the webbing.

We're kinda beating phreon's original post here but I think it's a good discussion.

Tow belts entail risk as well but for a different reason. I know of a guy towing a boat with a tow belt. Uh, oh, here comes a rock. Boater went on one side, boat-in-tow went on the other. Over he went. The belt spun around his waist putting the quick release in the small of his back where he couldn't find it. Thankfully the story has a happy ending as he managed to get out of it.

Back to phreon's original question, it's tough to imagine a rescue PFD which isn't going to interfere at least a little with your cross bow strokes. Then again, some of the newer designs seem to keep the bulk down lower. As to riding up on you, back in the old days PFD's had crotch straps! (That might be rough on your image though.)

Happy shopping,

Ken

Well - as we've once again detoured a bit...

That's why I always use a prussic loop, and attach to the boat... let them both go if push comes to shove. Yet easy enough to free, so as to not have to. I keep it around my waist and closed with a back lock (via-ferrata style) parabiner. A normal quick self-locking works almost as well. One hand without looking and it's free, and it's long enough to work well (if double wrapped). The via rappel style is nice as the prussic rope can be wrapped around both locking mechanism and paddle (or branch) to create a hook. The separate prussic loop is also something good(way good) to hand a panicked person, as they do not always let go... I've been slow/stupid enough to have to done that more than once. And if needed they can open loop and hang around their back and up front under arms... and if you grab someone that's tired out, the 'Uncle Remus Tar Baby' story is next. Yep - you run the risk of looking like some gumpy techno newby, so be careful wearing all new gear. - (Enough - I've digressed even more...) -

I want a rescue style, for all the other reasons... And just maybe will be leaving the teether attached. I've found a separate rescue belt good, but just another item to keep up with. I also have one (a slamander) with throw rope, but find it too bulky on the lower back (when leaning back). And have always felt it was an invitation to an entanglement, and looks like it may easily hang up on something. The main thing to me is with all the straps, it's good to have an 'easily' accessible knife.