C-Forum

I have a question. I have a habit of having a long cross forward stroke, often all the way back to my shins. I do this for a number of reasons.

1) I feel like I have good power during the second have of my stroke

2) Sometimes the boat will be turning toward my offside, and I have to throw a long, often wide, cross forward stroke to keep it from careening off completley sideways.

3) My recovery is just slicing the paddling out of the water, and I can do it real quickly.

I ran into a guy, who said that they should be out in front like a forward stroke is, and only really pull it back by a 1ft, then start over and do it again. These just seem really short to me...Is this the way to do it? I have a very strong cross-foward stroke, and am not afraid to paddle on that side... it's close to as strong as my forward stroke, so I use it a ton.

When telling the guy that the canoe careens off if I dont do long strokes when needed, he said I can control that by tilting the boat... I don't know what he means by this, so if someone could explain?

http://www.slalomtechnique.co.uk/view-c ... p?skill=41

check it out

You need to use the edge of your boat to cave slightly away from the direction your boat is going to turn to, then you'll go straight.

Bringing the paddle far back on your offside doesn't really add any power, and makes it harder to knife many strokes together quickly, which *will* deliver the power you need.

In general, I believe he was being helpful. In that you should paddle much the same on your offside, as you paddle on your onside. So most people find doing shorter, more vertical onside strokes work better most of the time. Therefore the same ought to hold true for that other side.

So your question:

Yes with Edges, just like Josh said. Remember you can carve on either edge to make the boat go in a particular direction. I paddle left side and always utilize right and left edge control, so therefore when cross-stroking my control edge can-n-will be with left as well as right leans. The lean is very minimal, and will hardly be noticeable a lot of times. You will feel and see the results, regardless if no one else sees the lean. It's not that you are so much balanced on them, you much more feel them carving. Just remember that a carve will only sometimes be a curve, as sometimes it will be a straight line.


Still it depends...

I prescribe that there is no one way, to do most everything. There are some things that I do, that will do not for you. And consequently reckon there are somethings that you do, which will not work for me. Is it better to use a sweep, or is it better to a draw, or is it better to do a power stroke, and which side will it work best on the left or right... lot of times it matters more what your next move or stroke will be, as in what's coming up next.

To be redundant, I personally think (IMHO) a cross forward should be done a lot like a on side forward. Except that I tend to favor using a under-water recovery. This recovery also helps steer, and compensate for lack of rudder component. Yet there are times you might do a sequence of several pure forwards in quick succession. Just like you would on your onside (see 'Mr Horne's technique link) using all catch, power, and recovery phases. While at times you will hang on one, trailing it back (like you said) to your shins. This is nothing more or less than a rudder or offside J-stroke. I really like doing C-strokes, so also do them offside. Sometimes a sweep is nice, so why not over there on that side. I'm sure we all use cross-draws. Just as I may point slightly off to one side to overcompensate when starting on my onside. So I will do the same over pointing on cross-strokes.

Why did I say all that? Just to get to this point and say, all of that (all of the above) can be done with a lean...and at times a lean will make your stroke do... what it would simply not do alone.

I prescribe that there is no one way, to do most everything.

Phil, now that's a breath of fresh air for Internet advice!

I agree that short offside power strokes are preferred. Just watch a talented, agressive, confident paddler, and then watch a newbie - one will have shorter strokes than the other, and one will get tangled more and spin out more.

Regarding your #2, a part of the solution is likely better anticipation that the boat is going into an offside carve (or careen), just get over to your quick little offsides a little earlier.

Once it's already careening, battling the boat with big, long, offside sweep strokes, powerful as you may be able to do them, are not a pretty picture! Not to mention that those battle strokes probably put your weight to your offside and edge and probably even bring you forward out of the saddle a bit, weighting your offside bow quarter, which wouldn't help things.

So, various carving tilts aside, I'd say do try and use shorter offside power strokes, and just pay a little attention to whether you should've gone to your offside a stroke or 2 sooner.

Pat.

Do we still call it "Perking"? For Rand Perkins who showed the way long ago?

what`s the best way to use body rotation on the cross forward ? Trying to push the lower torso and hips forward against the movement of your arms? Or only straightening your upper body without using the hips ?

I really like the technique advise here on cboats on the forward stroke http://www.cboats.net/technique/
Some knowing slalom paddler should write something about the cross forward

Cross forward is mainly done -by me- by bending forward and rightening the upper body.
The important part is that I already have power during the bending forward, and again while rightening.
I should try the hip-thing you describe though. Sounds like adding that little extra power - if it works.

Larry--

thanks for posting the link to that site. good stuff to be found there, along w/ good c footage....

that certainly helps me as i'm trying to figure out stern squirts. it does make me want a slalom boat a bit though....

FullGnarlzOC wrote:
2) Sometimes the boat will be turning toward my offside, and I have to throw a long, often wide, cross forward stroke to keep it from careening off completley sideways.

Yes, that's a sweep to me. just my 2 pennies I feel you cross-strokes should ideally become as various as your onside ones. I work these days on beeing able to cross draw with or without some bracing in it, cross-forward with or without too much rotating (sweep) effect, and more...

If you need to turn to your onside, you can use tilt as others have suggested.
Likewise, you can also use the in-water recovery slice to steer; find force on your recovery slice and change the blade pitch to help turn the boat.

But let's go farther and explore the 4 stroke elements to assist your carving.
See CARVING USING THE INSIDE CIRCLE : The 2 X 4 Forward Stroke Technique - Developed by Andrew Westwood
at
http://westwoodoutdoors.ca/2010/02/24/c ... -westwood/

I think you are right to slant or angle your paddle shaft & blade and pull past your hip. Make sense?

Here's a little stolen excerpt from Canoe Basics... Don't want to put it on YouTube, since it is not "public". Consider it a promo for the entire DVD...

cross_forward.wmv

Adam - Feel free to delete this post if it violates any rules...

ezwater wrote:Do we still call it "Perking"? For Rand Perkins who showed the way long ago?

The "perk" was specifically injecting a single, quick cross-forward stroke in-between 2-3 regular forward strokes as a means of keeping a C-1 moving forward without using a J-stroke.

It sounds like the cross-forward described in the original post is being used in a somewhat different context, particularly if the paddler uses a long cross-forward and then hangs on the end of it.

John

another thought concerning cross-forwards... edges... and leans...

I imagine there's a major impact concerning hull type. My Spanish Fly is rather edgy, so it's really sensitive to leans. A fact that is inherent in it's design. So depending on the boat being paddled, there could be a great difference in results. I'm not completely sure what a totally rounded hull would behave like.

Been working on flatwater with different types of cross forward strokes. I have 2 new ones that I am putting in place of the old long cross For.

1. way out in front, 1ft stroke, with recoverying turning the powerface parellel with the hull, and skull/draw back to the catch phase. rinse and repeat. - With this I notice, decent acceleration, with the strong point being they can be done very fast with not a whole lot of time taken to do few quick strokes. Also, the boat tends to draw to my offside while going foward a little bit, so this can be taken into considerationg during stroke selection.

2. out in front, 2ft stroke, with snapping the powerface out. This acts as a correction stroke, just like my snappy J-stroke on my on-side. I find that this cross stroke, has more power, more acceleration, and am able to maintain a straight like much easier with doing only these.

The second stroke is going to most likely be my go to cross forward, once I get it habit and instinctual. It takes half the amount of strokes than the first one does. The first style is more slalom style cross-stroke, designed to get back to the onside, i believe. I don't like this as much because my cross forward is just as powerful as my on-side. It's a very strong cross forward stroke, which is why I was getting away with longer strokes. But longer strokes no more.... changing the game to short explosive strokes. Especially since the Detonator doesn't really hold speed well, it's more of an accelerator.

Thanks for the advice guys.