C-Forum

I have what I believe is an old maverick slalom boat and wonder if you think it would be worthwhile to cut it down to 3.5 meters in hopes that it will turn easier. Or is it just hopeless?
One alternative , I guess, is to learn how to turn it . But it's so uncomfortable that I don't like to spend any time in it.

Which brings me to my second question..
I think it's so uncomfortable because the cockpit is too narrow at my thighs, I have lowered the saddle to 4" just to squeeze into it. I think I can handle the saddle height, but combined with the tight cockpit, it's just pure torture. I've been in an old Estanguet that was super comfy...it's cockpit is squared off a little bit.
I think I could handle reshaping the ends OK, but Is re-shaping the cockpit really complicated?

Hi
I'm not a slalom guru, rather a desperado fighter between the gates, but I have not the best memories of shortened slalom boats.

how well or badly a slalom c1 turns, is based not only on length, but also shape of the boat and volume. According to my experiences, the last two have a way bigger influence than the length.

I don't think shortening will help much - actually, the shape is considered to work on 4 m, not 3,50. So maybe better leave it as it is.

It can also make it difficult for you to turn when the boat is too big for you. Sure it is still possible, but it requires better technique.

When it comes to cockpit, I have never reshaped one, so I can't tell

Hope this helps
have fun on the river

Not complicated, but somewhat laborious.

One thing to check is whether Kaz or someone else has a cockpit rim you can install, and whether your Maverick cockpit is small enough that the new rim will fit over it. Then you could just cut out the appropriate aperture and you're in.

The only thing you can do with the existing rim is to cut a new hole and either move pieces of the rim out to where they need to be, or throw them away and use the Tygon tube method to lay up rim to fill in the gaps.

Who made the Maverick? Dagger? The rim on my Zealot is decent sized, and allows enough thigh room even for my 6' 5" frame.

It's not a big deal to change the cockpit coaming. I'd cut the old one completely off. The usual method is to hot-glue tubing to the opening, then lay glass/kevlar around the tubing and under the deck. Cutting the material on a bias (diagonal to the weave) will make it much easier to conform to the curves. Since my cut pieces (about 3" wide) don't go all the way around, I just keep going around, overlapping the pieces until I get about 4-5 layers.

If you can time it correctly, you can use a razor-knife to trim it just before it completely sets up.

I think The Boat Builder's Manual has a good section on the process.

What I did with my C1 to shorten it is to also reduce the stern's volume by trimming and squashing. That should also work for you to make the boat turn faster (at the expense of making aggressive paddling more important). It's harder than the coaming change unless you've got experience putting in inside seams. I wouldn't try just outside seams. Not strong enough. Lots of cutting and grinding too. I think it took me about 10 unpleasant hours (with all the appropriate air tools) to do mine.

Larry:

Bob P. gave a pretty good description of how to rebuild a coaming after cutting a larger opening, so I won't add to that.

However, as to cutting down a 4-meter boat, simply shortening the ends will just get you a shorter boat whose primary increase in value will be that you'll be slightly less likely to hit poles on entry and exit of gates, as well as slightly less likely to pound your stern on rocks when pivoting in shallow water. Because the lines of the boat are the same (other than shortened ends), its handling won't be changed significantly. You also may notice your bow pearling a little more readily, particularly if you're at the upper end of the weight range for your boat. I've done that kind of cut-down on several 4-meter boats so I'm familiar with the process and the results.

If you are looking for a more radical change in handling (e.g. a boat that pivots more like a true 3.5 meter slalom design), then you'll need to do a more complete cut-down that involves cutting the boat apart at the seams (either completely or at least for major portions, particularly in the stern). What you need to eliminate is NOT just length, but also some width and volume, particularly in the stern. It would be best to borrow a 3.5 meter slalom boat whose performance and lines you like and use that, sitting side by side with your boat, as a guide in making some of these changes. Of course, this is a major job that involves sanding both sides of the cut seam and then re-seaming the boat, which isn't a particularly fun job when the boat is a brand new shell and can be a complete bitch when it is already outfitted.

Good luck!!

John

Larry- I cut down my Estanguet (front and back) to about 3.7m using these instructions. http://www.treybay.com/MD_Page.htm
I've never done a cockpit re-do, and would be a bit afraid, unless I had "guidance". The cut down boat is a bit more nimble and handles a bit better. However, because I did not take volume out of the tail, its hard to pivot at 160-165lbs, despite the shortened length. If I had had the skill, I would have cut the center .5m out of the boat, rejoined the ends, and cut in a new cockpit. If you've got the time and inclination, I'd say go for it....edg

What do you all think about these slalom weights on the link that "edg" posted. SLALOM BOAT WEIGHTS It seems that the weights that they are using on the website are designed to be put in the center of the boat, I assume to get boats up to minimum weight requirements.

Can anybody comment on dropping some weights in the stern of the boat to be able to drop the stern for a pivot turn. Similar to Larry's issue, I have trouble dropping the stern in for a pivot turn and I have no interest in cutting and glassing. I was thinking of duct taping a tube sock full of pennies in the far back of the stern. I'm about 6'1" 180lbs soaking wet and I'm paddling Jack's old Upstream Edge C1 full cut.

RE: reshaping the cockpit... good luck and let us know how it turns out

Add weight? SACRILEGE!!!!

I think you'd have to add quite a bit to change things - and then you'd be stuck with a sunk stern all the time. Gonna make the boat slower.

Unfortunately, the best solution is still to take volume out of the stern, like I did. Then you will have better control over the boat dynamics.

Ah, the Maverick... I had one once and now have a Maverick +. They haul butt in a straight line but take some coaxing to turn. But... they can be turned, even pivot turned with aggressive technique. Heck there may even be video on this site of me pivoting mine on the Feeder Canal from an Armada years back. Fortunately mine has a cockpit as big as a Cascade's...

As for cutting it down, well, that's what Adam did when making the "Maven" *that* boat will turn - turn *over*

Thanks for the tips all.
Aside from learning how to paddle, Reducing the volume sounds like the way to go. It might be out of my league, but I just may go for it. Seaming the inside though...jeez, that does not sound like fun.


Ed- Cutting it out of the center is a very interesting idea...especially since I want to reshape the cockpit. Do you know of people that have done that?
and BTW-you don't seem to have any trouble with pivots from what I've seen.

I found when I started paddling a slalom boat the best thing to help me pivot was to really reach way back on my bow draws and x bow draws.
I know you have seen the technique library look at how far back they reach to initiate their turns that is why you see the top hand/harm going over/behind their head on the onside and on your cross bow draws don't drop your top elbow keep it up and bent reach way back and almost do a backstroke with the power face. I imagine that boat is prob just tough to get good pivots like the ones you see in the new boats. Also don't try to throw it under with aggressive lean just keep the boat pretty flat sit back some and slice through with a strong stroke

This is just what I have picked up so far, but I am by no means a slalom guru, but I am absolutely loving it so far!!!

If you want to learn more about boat design and fabrication techniques, cut it down.

If you want a faster turning, better performing slalom boat the most economical way, buy a different one

Redoing a cockpit rim is much easier than dealing with cutting and reseaming. A cockpit rim can easily be done in an afternoon (cutting out the old, laying up the new. You'll still have some finish work later, but mostly clean up). Seams... far longer, and not as pleasant by far.

I haven't tried Tygon... I use garden hose:) Hot glue is indeed the ticket for holding it in place.

markzak wrote:Can anybody comment on dropping some weights in the stern of the boat to be able to drop the stern for a pivot turn. Similar to Larry's issue, I have trouble dropping the stern in for a pivot turn and I have no interest in cutting and glassing. I was thinking of duct taping a tube sock full of pennies in the far back of the stern. I'm about 6'1" 180lbs soaking wet and I'm paddling Jack's old Upstream Edge C1 full cut.

Keep in mind that the Lugbills, Davey Hearn, Bumbo Robison, and other DC C-1 paddlers messing around in the late 70s were pivoting in early Max series C-1s. With the proper technique and enough power, you'd be surprised what you can pivot!

However, for us mere mortals trying to pivot in older 4 meter slalom designs, I can recall that when someone wanted to sky a pivot it used to be quite common to first slip a sprayskirt open and edge the boat to take on some water. With all that extra weight sloshing around, it then became quite easy to increase your verticality when doing eddy line squirts. It can be fun to temporarily increase your stern weight in this manner, and it can help you in getting a feel for what technique works better in initiating a pivot, but I wouldn't want to make a permanent alteration of the boat balance just to achieve higher pivots.

John

Thanks, all good advice and much appreciated.

Great comments here, good history lesson.

If you check in the Search Boats section above and look for a Loco you will find a series of pics that have a SuperBatMax next to Loco. In addition you can see it next to Double Dutch Ultimo and a Makao. The Ultimo was cut down and really did not make it through the process very well. The Loco and Makao where 2006 designs and when next to the SuperBatMax you can see how radically different the boats are. In particular volume on the SuperBatMax is distributed pretty consistently from Bow to stern. The rails are smaller and the cockpit it very cramped as a result. Look at the Loco and you can get a feel for how much volume has been removed from the stern and pushed forward along with the cockpit. The newer boats are starting to take volume out of the bow as well and pushing it to cockpit area. The Maverick is a close enough relative to the SuperBatMax. Cutting down the Maverick may get you a pretty cool squirt type boat, but it will still be nothing like a newer slalom boat. A fun project no doubt and worth all the effort cuz' it will be your creation!