Stable versus responsive

milkman · Post by **milkman** » Mon Aug 30, 2010 4:59 pm

In comparing the L'edge to the Prelude, I notice people keep speaking of stability, particularly primary stability as a positive. Generally, I think of that as something good for beginning canoeists. I've always thought that once you reach a certain point in paddling where you understand river currents, water dynamics, and have developed instinctive balance in the boat, you're best off with a boat that has very little primary stability but good secondary. Such a boat is really responsive to boat tilt and more dynamic. The paddler is relied on for the stability, not the boat. For these reasons, I love a boat like the Prelude or Phantom. Aside from getting into and out of the boat, these boats never feel unstable to me and instead feel ready and quick to respond to my every movement.

Thoughts? Opinions?

fez · Post by **fez** » Mon Aug 30, 2010 5:28 pm

I don`t see a connection between primary stability and responsiveness of a hull.

marclamenace · Post by **marclamenace** » Mon Aug 30, 2010 5:33 pm

Thoughts?

- Would love to try a ledge.

Opinions?

- You sound just about right, but I think an edgier boat could serve advanced paddlers as well, being just as responsive if not better, a wider and edgier boat would be slower, less friendly on a side surf, but could play better (front surf and tricks) and be more stable. Stable isn't critical to a good paddler, but it can always be nice...

Craig Smerda · Post by **Craig Smerda** » Mon Aug 30, 2010 5:48 pm

I don't care to spend my time on the water "bracing and correcting"... I'd rather focus on what I'm going to be doing next no matter if it's on a wave, in a hole, running sketchy stuff or landing from a drop.

SpanishFly... predictable... every time.

New boat... ask around...

Boat's that lack initail stability at my weight imo... suck!
Boat's that lack initial stability when you are over the 200lb+ mark... really suck!!!

Granted for "playing" it's a bit different... but you can also check with Jeremy Laucks... he made the Blackfly wider from Boat #1 to Boat #2 for some odd reason.

Louie · Post by **Louie** » Mon Aug 30, 2010 6:23 pm

You need to paddle the new boat and then repost, I think you will not say the same thing.

TheKrikkitWars · Post by **TheKrikkitWars** » Mon Aug 30, 2010 6:30 pm

A stable boat can be nice for some things, A responsive boat can be nice for others, a boat that's stable and responsive is the holy grail...

Now I've not seen a L'edge in the flesh, but whilst I'm not convinced that It'll be as snappy as the 'Lude, I reckon if it's even half as snappy whilst being as stable as everyone seems to think, the overall compromise would let me paddle harder, and do more...

jscottl67 · Post by **jscottl67** » Mon Aug 30, 2010 6:54 pm

I think that in a more traditional hull design that is true, but in looking at the bottom of the boat in pics (look on the 5 page post and see the boats upside down on Craig's truck) it isn't a traditional design. It's not quite there, but it reminds me a little of a tri-hull design (power boats). If you can't quite call it a tri-hull type concept, you have to concede at least that it has more "control" surfaces than a typical canoe.

Louie · Post by **Louie** » Mon Aug 30, 2010 7:31 pm

It is so stable that you don't have to do any back strokes or low braces, all you need to do is paddle forward as hard as you like, at that speed you can have it respond as well as you want.

Please before yopu start makin you opions on what others have said you need to paddle it yourself.

milkman · Post by **milkman** » Mon Aug 30, 2010 8:09 pm

Would love to test paddle the L'edge--send one out to Portland, Oregon as soon as you can.

I'm not slamming the L'edge at all. I'm actually, like most of us, highly interested in the boat. What I am interested in and what this post is about is the stability versus reponsiveness question. When I look at videos of the L'edge being paddled, it actually looks like a very easy boat to engage boat tilt on. Whether the boat needed to be as wide as it is and sacrifice some speed is debatable, but everyone seems to be liking it just fine.

I do know when I got into a Raven once (a completely different boat, I know) which is touted for its stability, I hated it because it was so much work to get the tilt on it engaged to do anything. Its stability was a feature I didn't want or need.

As for the comment about not having to "do back strokes or low braces", I'm not sure what that has to do with it. I'm mostly controlling the stability of my boats by using my hips, not my paddle. The low brace comes in as a last resort option.

Craig Smerda · Post by **Craig Smerda** » Mon Aug 30, 2010 8:28 pm

milkman wrote:Would love to test paddle the L'edge--send one out to Portland, Oregon as soon as you can.

Whether the boat needed to be as wide as it is and sacrifice some speed is debatable, but everyone seems to be liking it just fine.

It's really 28-1/2" wide but the "splash rails" add an 1" so don't be decieved. That's the overall max width at the very center. Also... it did need to be wider and more stable as the research actually showed that open boaters on average weigh more and are taller than what's been marketed and sold previously... and a lot of them don't fit well in a kayak or just don't want to kayak. Add all that to the fact that this boat is only 9'-2" long and you need to displace the water correctly if you want it to float a larger group of paddlers. I spoke with someone about making a Spanish Fly XL once and he was ponderin' it...

Read...

yarnellboat wrote:And hey Westerns, rumour is that we will have a decked L'Edge available for demo at the Tamihi Five-0 slalom in Chilliwack Sept 18-19.

Pat.

RodeoClown · Post by **RodeoClown** » Mon Aug 30, 2010 8:48 pm

Craig Smerda wrote:Granted for "playing" it's a bit different... but you can also check with Jeremy Laucks... he made the Blackfly wider from Boat #1 to Boat #2 for some odd reason.

Proprietary information.

Actually, it got wider from boat 1 to 2, and from 2 to 3. Reasons: 1: The boat needs to be stable enough to paddle onto the wave or downriver to the wave, and 2: need enough surface area to support the weight. The first version was horribly unstable.

There's also a difference between "stable" (either primary or secondary) and "easy/hard to edge." In fact, lack of stability often makes it harder to "edge" a boat- or at least hold the edge where you want it.

And why do people get so caught up about speed? People have been saying "too short" and "too slow" since the days of the Dancer, and yet- at least decked boats- keep getting shorter. For general river running, they've now settled into 8-8.5 feet. I'll be the first to say there are huge differences between what works in a decked boat and what works in a canoe, but is a 9'2" canoe really "too slow?" Especially when the boat is actually stable enough to drive around and actually paddle, I think that maneuverability is much more of an asset.

Craig Smerda · Post by **Craig Smerda** » Mon Aug 30, 2010 8:52 pm

RodeoClown wrote:Proprietary information.

from who?

horizongfx · Post by **horizongfx** » Mon Aug 30, 2010 9:03 pm

If you like Slicing it up in the Long Boats Grab you a Spark or Viper.
If you like general River running and Creekin get you a L'edge. Nobody says you have to own and paddle one boat !
However if I could only own one boat it would be the L'edge.
Does that Mean I want to sell my Spanish Fly Maybe, but not yet, I ain't even Got the New off it yet, Beside it does Enders better than the L'edge.

Craig Smerda · Post by **Craig Smerda** » Mon Aug 30, 2010 9:09 pm

horizongfx wrote:Does that Mean I want to sell my Spanish Fly Maybe, but not yet, I ain't even Got the New off it yet, Beside it does Enders better than the L'edge.

easier yes... better... ???

horizongfx · Post by **horizongfx** » Mon Aug 30, 2010 9:18 pm

Craig Smerda wrote:
horizongfx wrote:Does that Mean I want to sell my Spanish Fly Maybe, but not yet, I ain't even Got the New off it yet, Beside it does Enders better than the L'edge.

easier yes... better... ???

Let me rephrase that.. I can do enders in smaller features easier.

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Stable versus responsive

Stable versus responsive

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