C-Forum

I'm just curious to hear people's thoughts and opinions on "the Viper 11" versus "the Ocoee"

Obviously both boats were designed by Frankie Hubbard... Dagger and now Bell made/make the Ocoee and Mohawk has always had the Viper(s) which preceeded the Ocoee.

Around here I see far more Ocoee's and I have previously owned and loved a few of them. (FWIW... mine were always fiddled with) but as they come stock... what are the real differences though... other than the bigger deck plates on the Viper(s)???

Just asking because someone was looking for a used Ocoee and I suggested they also look for a Viper... in case you happen to be curious why I'm asking.

So Ocoee/Viper owners, lovers, fans... what's the dealio???!!!???

I've owned both. Liked both.

Owned both. Liked both. I think the Ocoee is dryer and more nimble by just an edge (no pun intended). I think the Bell ABS may not be as tough as the Mohawk boats I've seen recently.

prefer the OCoee for it's dryness compared to Viper. I wonder what the Viper would be like if Mohawk raised the front and had new deck plates

My first ww canoe was a Ocoee, I learned in and still love the design wish I had one currently. Paddled a friends Bell I liked it ro lighter than the Dagger I had. No experience in the Viper 11 I paddle a 12 often though. If I ever get a chance I would like to try a 11.

but watching folks paddle them, it seems to me the edges are little less forgiving than the ocoee.....more easy to flip if hitting a wave just right.
The ocoee seems to glide over things with a little edge lift....I was concerned to try one because friends had told me how edgy it was.... wished I would have tried one much earlier in my canoe career! It is sweet!
Agree Bell ocoees don't seem to take abuse as well as the dagger...but I do like the lighter weight.
It is the first boat (okay not first) it is the first composite boat I've owned that seems a bit heavy to carry, but very light on the water. I can move it when I need to which is important for a weakly female paddler!
(the Homes does not count in my commentary...it definitely is the most nimble and light short boat I've ever paddled!
Now to get esquif to make a plastic Homes...my dream boat!!
Helenator

Keep your wonderful Holmes and add a L'Edge. The L'Edge is now my one boat to do it all.

Hm-m-m. . . I own a Viper 12, which I don't use very much any more, and a Dagger Ocoee, which is my main OC-1. (I haven't tried a Bell.)

On a recent trip, I swapped with Einar who has a Viper 11. We both agreed that the Ocoee is a livelier boat, and needs attention until you get used to it. The Viper has a ton of secondary stability, and tends to paddle 'heavier,' probably cuz it's rocker isn't as pronounced as the Ocoee's. Also, the Viper's hard chines are only in the middle third of the boat, where the Ocoee's run pretty well full-length.

Dryer ride in the Ocoee? I dunno about that. The famous Mohawk 'funnel-shaped' blunt ends help the Viper ride up over waves, where the Ocoee has a slim stem-line without much flare, and tends to slice into waves, if you're not paying attention. (Course, I admit I've trimmed my gunn'l line down a bit.)

They're both good boats. The Viper 11 may be the most common OC-1 in the Pacific north-west, and includes a number of composite editions. Not many Ocoees, and I'm not about to let mine go.

My 2 cents worth (CAD).

Rick

I started in a dagger ocoee. I'll never forget it, I got it as a wedding/birthday present (Louie's cheap) and all I ever spent on it was $10 bucks on two rolls of duct tape. It was a great boat, I'd love to say it was easy to roll but I didn't have a roll at the time, it was more of a flop. I now have a viper 11 and I love it. Probably more than the ocoee because I can now fully appreciate it. Great river runner, super stable, easy to roll, and the deck plates are much wider and longer which I think deflect more water. Anyhow, both are great boats and very similar. It's a great boat on big rivers but for creekin, I'd have to stick to the MAXIM. Great for boofin and surfin.

P.S. The guys down at Mohawk got the PE in the works. Very exited.

Good luck to Mohawk. Right now Esquif owns the market. They have at least 3 (probably 5) OC1 creek boats that are superior to any Mohawk creeker.

I own a viper11; had a short test in the ocoee... .

As been mentioned, the ocoee has hard chines over the full length, the viper only around the middle, then moving to softer, more forgiving chines.
Ocoee is clearly snappier, and you have to plan your moves more carefully just because of the harder chines. And ocoee turns a lot faster, has also more rocker.
Viper is my learning boat, so I understand it quite well. But I've tried a lot of boats, and I still think that the viper is one of the best all-round designs out there. (haven't had the chance to test L'Edge ).
The viper is not dry, certainly not slow, gives quite good river feedback, not too hard to roll, ... .
The ocoee is probably a bit dryer, but also a bit slower, a bit more agressive in it's feedback, ... .
As I mentioned, I think franky did a really great job by balancing the desing characteristics of this boat.

The shorter viper, a bit more rocker, larger deckplates and PE; that would be hades of a boat as far as I'm concerned

Oh, and for your info, I'm now mainly paddling a prelude, which I like as well

What? Rick, you're hording an unused Viper 12 in BC??

You should put that in the hands of somebody who'd like to be using it!! In fact, you should probably trade it for an old Outrage or a C-1 Score?!

Pat.

p.s. Yes, the Viper 11 seems to be the popular boat with folks out here. Mohawks are surprisingly common, plus the Clippers.

In my relatively brief trails, I prefer the Ocoee, I think because it's deeper and keeps me drier. But I haven't owned either, so I'm mostly just making that up.

I also like the depth (or something) of the Viper 12 much better than the 11 - wish they could marry the two and make "a 12" that was shorter. Sounds crazy, but I don't think the 11 is it - to me there seems to be more difference between those hulls than 1' of length.

I still have a viper (western canoeing/clipper) and ocoee (dagger)

And I love the viper more, drier bow.

You drive a hard bargain, Pat.

Rumour has it yer bringing in one of them-thar new-fangled Ledgy boats to the T50 ?

Tell ya what I'm gonna do -- I'll swap you straight across -- my Viper 12 for the Wedgy. I'll even throw in the wife and the dog.

(Well, maybe not the dog -- he's quiet and housebroken. . .)

Maybe having a L'Edge to demo (unconfirmed I should note!) at the T50 will convince you "northerns" to skip your kayak festival and come play with us canoes!

Same for those on the island, interior, Seattle and Portland - come make the T50 a big gathering of canoes. You might get to try Esquif's new L'Edge!

Not to mention the Chilliwack is a great river.

Pat.

p.s. How about an Outrage and a Score, and you keep your family members?