C-Forum

I bought a used Viper 11 earlier this year and have very much enjoyed paddling it this Summer. No complaints about how it handles, though I sometimes struggle with surfing and it seems a bit wet, both to which I've blamed my lack of skill.

Comparing its outfitting to a few other Viper 11's, I have recently notice my saddle is 3"-4" further forward than the other Vipers I've seen. As a general rule, I've heard your hip bone should be 3"-4" behind the boats center line. In my Viper, I sit with my hip bone inline with the boats measured center line.

What is the optimum saddle position for the Viper 11? What impact on the boats performance does having my weight further forward have? Should I move the saddle back? My weight is 160 lbs.

This is something that I have also noticed with my Mohawk boats (Probe 12 and Viper 12). Mine are trimmed behind center line, I was wondering if the performance would be better if trimmed at center line. I'd like to know the reasoning behind this.

how is the boat trimmed with you sitting in a neutral position?
it should be either neutral or very slightly stern heavy.
Others may differ on my opinion, but bow heavy does not really work well, as this leads to the bow of the boat digging in the second you lean aggressively forward.
If it's bow heavy, then I would move the saddle.
I see that you are in Kelowna. Any good paddling down that way?

TGG!

The feedback from others looking on is the trim appears to be neutral when I'm sitting upright. As I lean into the forward strokes the trim is shifted forward making it bow heavy.

I've had difficulty keeping my ferries and when surfing I really have to pay attention to the tilt otherwise I carve off the wave. No doubt one of the challenges with a harder chined boat, but I couldn't help wondering if this may be more problematic due to the trim. I'd like to hear from other Viper11 paddlers what experience they may have had with this.

Gonzo - Kelowna is not the best place to live for ww paddling. From Kamloops you have more options. The unexpected rain in Sept breathed a little more life into the 'Chucks' and Adams, but that's about it. It'll soon be time to put the boats away and pull out the skis.

with the saddle forward it makes the boat nose heavy it will dive into the wave so to speak i guess with the saddle more to the back it will make the boat lighter in the front making it a lil easier on the waves. contact Mohawk and ask what there recommendations are i don't know the rocker on the boat

I just went out and measured mine with the factory installed outfitting. My hip bone is 3-4 inches back from center of the hull.

THe Viper 11 is one of those boats that have been "dumbed" down a little. I set my boats up where the front of my hip bones are even with center. This makes the boat very lively. The down side is it make the boat a little wetter. But makes it respond more like it should. THe factory settup paces you 3 or 4 inhes back from center. As long as your not bow heavey you are golden, as long as you are happy with the set up.

Hi Neil,

I like my outfitting fairly neutral (and this doesn't very much in different boast as far as I can tell) - when I sit up straight, the front of my face/body is pretty much at the centre line. Of course, I guess my "hip bones" are probably 3-4" behind the leading edge of my belly, so none of this guidance is very exact!

One thing I like to do is mark the cetnre line of my boats - I find the centre and keep it marked with tape, which helps for trim, and more usefully for lifting & dumping.

I also watch the wear on my boat's bottom. If the vinyl I'm wearing out is too far to the stern and nothing under the saddle, I'd move up.

You'll just have to play with it, and cutiing and glueing foam is easy to do - sounds like you'd like to cut some back - go for it!

Have you compared measurements with Einar, Chris and others to see how far their seat-back is from the tip of their bow?

Pat.

p.s. Get Gonzo to go paddling with you/us! At the T50 Dean mentioned he's fun to watch.

Hey Pat - Yeah, I've compared setups with both Einar and Chris's Vipers. I was also out paddling on the Chucks the other day with a couple of Dean's friends, Bob and Rob, from Kamloops. Rob has a Viper11 as well. For all three of these cases I'm 3"-4" further forward. Actually, it was seeing Rob stay dryer on the drops that got me thinking more about this and decided to post here.

2opnboat1 - thanks for the info! Sounds like there may be nothing wrong with it being setup this way. I do very much like the way it handles, it does seem quite lively. I suspect the troubles I'm having with ferries and surfing are more likely due to my getting use to a harder chine boat.

Neil

At some point you are going to have to impose technique over hull; everyone has the same problem with the Viper 11; it is fast and it does accelerate very quickly. Read Don Froeses comments on paddling my Kevlar V 11 on the T50 race as I consider Don a good V11 canoeist that is stepping back into the hull after an absence. He loves it but he is coming back with a kayakers sensibility of speed and quicker reaction time and therefore he is "on" the hull.
And winning the races!
The Viper 11 is kinda like a hot car, a Shelby Mustang Cobra, pretty unforgiving of error and demanding of technique but once you get it you love it.

The new era of boat hulls originally starting with Dagger and now Esquif have more bouyancy forward (fatter bows) and are more forgiving of burying the nose. Also some of the older designs were more forgiving with their rocker riding up the waves, like the Occoee but a Viper 11 won't let you get away with that.
For a start try experimenting with dragging the blade very lightly @ 90 d to direction of travel to slow the hull down. More active shredding on the wave creating S turns is demanding but might work too. If you just sit there it'll run away on you, a Viper 11 driver needs to back it up the wave , however you chose to do it.
Hull leans and off angle wave positioning will help on the river running, giving a more bouyant bow and using the deflecting flare. You are actually paddling the boat well from my POV but it does have character that won't go away. You might trade out of a Viper 11 but never up, IMHO.

I had to correct my royalex Viper 11, I had it trimmed too nose forward. Chris pointed it out on the Capilano canyon. Made for some pretty dramatic carving though, more like aggressive never ending arcs. And it was wetter, if you can imagine that. I made it neutral.

It is raining tonight and I'm taking the newly Modified Ovation out for a test drive tomorrow, originally a slow boat but faster now, with a fat bow, kind of my Viper 11 venom antidote.

Einar....that is a very good explanation. Do you have any experience with the viper 12 ? Can you give a comparison between the viper 11 and the viper 12? I have heard they are two very different boats.

Timely question, I now have Viper 12 in the rack but I haven't paddled it yet. A friend gave it to me this summer as a loaner boat to circulate amongst new paddler friends as they figure out different hull characteristics before buying.
I did paddle one early on but I didn't have enough experience to make a worthwhile judgement at that time. Too busy swimming up the learning curve.
I like the hull lines as I look at it and might be able to get out in it this weekend.

Hey Einar, I wanted to borrow the Viper 12 this weekend!!

To me a big difference in the boats is that the Viper 12 feels a lot deeper and drier. I really enjoyed paddling it, but that also may have been just loving the lightness of the composite hull.

Pat.

Richard- This is a question I have had with my Viper 12. So why is the saddle placed 3-4 inches behind center? Will this boat be more responsive if the saddle is moved up 3-4 inches? Wetter? It is a very dry boat now. How will it react differently?

When a boat is massed produced we have to pick a outfitting setup that will worrk for most people. So setting a boat up a little stern heavey dumbs down the design a little. We feel that the placement of our outfitting is pretty good for everyone. But if you are lookig for the boat to get hotter here are my tricks. Narrow the boat one inch and slide the outfitting forward 1.5 -2.5 inchs depending on what I am going to use the boat for. YOur weight and body type will also determine placement. I am for the front of my pelvic bones to be even with the center line. This makes the boat set flat for me and allows me to use much more of the chines