Rolling in the gnarly stuff

[Gord]

Over the last year I have progressed my skills to a point where I am running alot of CIV; steep technical stuff and high volume stuff.

In CIII my roll is solid, let's say 90-95% dependable.

In larger rapids I am having trouble hitting my roll. I seem to get knocked around by the currents when I am trying to set up my roll and don't get in the right position or my paddle is grabbing current and I struggle to get the blade to the surface for my roll.

Has anybody else had this problem? Could I simply be rushing my setup too much?

[FullGnarlzOC]

water is powerful....can knock your body anywhere.... best thing I can tell you to do to bombproof a roll, is have a bomber tuck and setup(paddle along side of the hull...makes it so you dont get blown around).

You ability to setup/re-setup is just as important as the roll itself, IMO.

Make sure the rollside gunnel is up, ie...the boat doesnt get stuck on the offside.


Other than that... don't give up. REFUSE TO SWIM.

[gumpy]

Good advice gnarzo.

I had a roll recently where the paddle got pulled out of my shaft hand, so I'm hanging on to the tgrip and the river has a hold of the blade, we had a little tug of war, dinging rocks along the way. Luckily I won and rolled, but all this because of a sloppy tuck. You must match the intensity of the river, or fail.

Good luck Gord, see you at alf

[sbroam]

How did you get your CII roll? Many rolls in the pool? How did you get your CIII roll? Many rolls in CII? ...

Develop muscle memory and commitment.

Swimming sucks.

[RodeoClown]

I would have actually given opposing advice- don't worry so much about the set up. A lot of people put too much emphasis on the set up at the neglect of the actual mechanics of the roll. Look back over some of the rolling video discussions (or do a youtube search for canoe roll)- there are a lot of different ways to roll, and set up to roll. Try to learn as many as you can, and practice them. You'll figure out that the two things they all have in common is 1)getting some purchase with your paddle and 2) hipsnap- you'll get to a point where that's all you need to focus on.

And like FG said, refuse to swim.

(On a somewhat related note, I think I stumbled across a video of a perfectly executed "fainting goat." Perhaps someone can confirm?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kh4HnhDM ... re=related)

[Pierre LaPaddelle]

No argument from me on any of these points -- thanks for the insights, folks.

However, I wonder if Gord hit the nail on the head when he suggested he might be rushing his set-up too much.

When you dump while surfing, ferrying, or crossing eddy-lines, you and your boat aren't travelling at the speed of the current. Indeed, I recall, on occasion, being ripped out of my (inadequate) outfitting because of the current differential.

In those scenarios, it makes sense to delay the roll until you feel you are 'up to speed' with the current.

Rick

[Gord]

Thanks for the responses everyone. CBoats rocks.

Gumpy, I am already stoked for ALF. Hope to paddle with you guys at some point.

[sbroam]

I'm of two minds about the set up - there are times (more often in aereated water?) where a lack of set up caused a swim and others where I threw myself into it and hammered out a fast roll that saved me a beating.

[Jim]

I agree with the other posts. My interpretation:

- A roll that is 90 – 95% dependable in class III is still not dependable.

- PRACTICE is the most powerful influence you will have on the motor learning necessary to get the roll right. I remember figuring out that the year I learned to roll I did about 1,000 rolls, most of them in a current. Practice teaches you the roll AND it teaches you how to adapt when things get interrupted during the roll (which is what happens in class IV and V).

- If you miss the first attempt, hang out for 5+ seconds and let your boat catch up to the speed of the water.

I remember a story told to me in my early days about Jim Michaud. Apparently Jim had rolled in a VERY sticky hole. After getting spanked down he peeked up from a half roll to find out where he was and then, as I heard it, “he paddled the boat under water.” The message was that Jim had the composure to paddle his upside-down boat to the end of the hole that would flush him out and THEN he rolled. Hanging around like that requires confidence that you will have a working roll when you need it; because you trust it you wait for it rather than bail out so that you can catch a breath.

Summary- keep practicing along the lines of what RodeoClown says- the more variety, the better.

Good luck.

[Gord]

- If you miss the first attempt, hang out for 5+ seconds and let your boat catch up to the speed of the water.

Jim had the composure to paddle his upside-down boat to the end of the hole that would flush him out and THEN he rolled. Hanging around like that requires confidence that you will have a working roll when you need it; because you trust it you wait for it rather than bail out so that you can catch a breath.

The idea of hanging out underwater 5+ seconds to let my boat catch up to the speed of the water is a concept I haven't considered much, but is something I will pay more attention to.

What if you don't have that much time, such as between to ledges, say a boat length apart?

As far as practice goes, my primary practice site is the local beach because it is 2 minutes from my home. Should I be looking for a river site to practice on?

[golder]

my roll didn't get confident and consistent when flipping unintentionally in whitewater till i had flipped a great many times in whitewater intentionally.

flip on purpose in the runout below rapids, in wave trains, at the entrance to rapids, in the middle of rapids, wherever.

obviously, start with places you are comfortable with, and gradually flip in places you are less and less comfortable being upside down.

playboating gives you lots of roll practice too, especially with dealing with weird currents.

(admitingly, all this on river roll practice is much nicer in the warmer months. also a pump makes intentionally flipping 25+ times on one river trip a much less daunting prospect)

[Gord]

flip on purpose in the runout below rapids, in wave trains, at the entrance to rapids, in the middle of rapids, wherever.

obviously, start with places you are comfortable with, and gradually flip in places you are less and less comfortable being upside down.

also a pump makes intentionally flipping 25+ times on one river trip a much less daunting prospect)

Rolling at the runout and wave trains of rapids may be a nice alternative to some of the places I have had to roll lately.

As for the pump, I agree, I wish I had one. Pulling over to dump a dozen times when practicing rolls is a pain in the butt.

Thanks for the advice

[Eli]

Great story about Jim!

A quick comment regarding outfitting: You need to be able to get out of it, but otherwise more contact is better.

I agree there can be different setups useful in rolling. Ultimately the goal is to return to your center. If I am washing into a ledge upside down, I try to keep my body floating as high as possible, outstretched horizontally over the shallow rocks. If I am flushing into another ledge, I try to roll before my blade or body touch rock. If I am late, I push off the bottom and try to return to my center. (If it works and you don't hurt your shoulder...it's legal!) Go for the motion, if you are in the air you have less resistance.
Alternatively, you can tuck tight, pulling your body back deep into your outfitting. This is the stance I revert to if it feels like I am pushing down on my paddle during the roll.

I'd rather roll than hang out in the tuck position. I show kids the air pocket in the traditional boats, but I'm more likely to gasp for a breath up by my gunnel, while in that high floating position, hanging out waiting for it to get easier.

Keep your knuckles down, consider wearing gloves and elbow pads, and choose a safe challenge where you can flip and practice. Make the practice fun and you will be rewarded when you least expect it!

[Gord]

If I am washing into a ledge upside down, I try to keep my body floating as high as possible, outstretched horizontally over the shallow rocks. If I am flushing into another ledge, I try to roll before my blade or body touch rock. If I am late, I push off the bottom and try to return to my center.

I'd rather roll than hang out in the tuck position. I show kids the air pocket in the traditional boats, but I'm more likely to gasp for a breath up by my gunnel, while in that high floating position, hanging out waiting for it to get easier.

Eli,

Thanks for the comments. I have seen some guys roll up out of a low brace without a set-up. I have done it myself as well. My problem was with offside rolls in bigger water because I was getting tossed around under my boat and unable to get to the surface on the onside to roll.

With all the comments received on this on this, I have some solid suggestions and areas to improve on. Thanks everyone

[Eli]

The offside roll is a cool skill. I typically only do it while getting thrashed offside in a big hole. I feel that it leaves me exposed and you come up in a weak position (offside), so I don't depend on it. That being said, it's basically an abdominal crunch where you don't depend on the paddle. I prefer trying to turn my boat around while underwater if I have the time, which gives my onside roll a better chance.

Good Luck!