C-Forum

Since he's blogging about it, I assume he doesn't mind his swim story being shared here...

Here's a blog from a guy who's been kayaking for 6-months. Most others who learned to kayak at that time are probably still looking for lessons and for solid groups to take them down class II-III runs (and that's not a bad thing 6-months in) - this guy has been out all the time and has stepped up quickly (too quickly?) to serious high-water class IV-V.

Here's a vid of the run they were on at rational high water, canoes paddle it way lower than this, good footage at the end of how a log can surprise you at this level of river/water:
http://vimeo.com/18030384

And here's his story about his swim at flood, which includes some good flags/reminders/lessons:
http://frywaterworld.blogspot.com/2011/ ... s-25m.html

McGnarly, he sounds like your sort of dude!

Pat.

Thinking about the recent theads about"kayakers vs. canoeists", I think this might be part of the rift:

Canoeists are wary that kayakers might be too fullgnarlz, the quicker learning curve of K-1ing making it more likely that people will get the ability to go on harder water before they have the experience to do so safely. (Not meaning to directly critisize Adam the Blogger here, he is in with an experienced group that should be able to judge these things, just generalizing.)

And in-turn, kayakers are wary that canoeists are ultra conservative, slow, and swim.

I think there's a lot of truth to those stereotypes, and I think it explains some of the hesitation people have about paddling with each other. I tend to trust canoesists more readily.

Yeah, yeah, there's exceptions to all these things, but Adam's experience (and McGnarlz's for that matter) just reminded me of some nerves that I have about paddling with (or taking advice from) kayakers.

But then again, I'm just an old, slow, conservative canoeist & telemarker who is looking to have max fun with min consequences - doing the Green Race is not on my to-do list.

Pat.

Testosterone, lack of judgement, and equipment technology all combine so that these incidents become all too prevalent. In the old days you needed to have a strong foundation in the boats to move up to more challenging water. This slowed things down a bit giving people time to gain some judgement. I did the same kind of thing striding the UY before I was ready and almost paid the price swimming under Mels Toilet Bowl. Sometimes it takes getting into really rude circumstsances to finally get the message.

this was posted on another thread and seemed relevant here.
"Most of my original paddling buddies quit boating....they had one really bad experience and eventually quit. You need to progress with maturity, not testosterone.....only then will you paddle your whole life."
this was in a thread about the sport declining on mtn. buzz, i thought it was a good point though.

For every inexperienced paddler getting in over his head, there are several accomplished and knowledgeable whitewater boaters these days. That depth in the sport has lead to a greater push into determining what’s possible.

It’s natural for people to become more conservative with experience. Relatively new kayakers are doing amazingly scary looking rapids now. They may not be in the sport for long, but their overall numbers have changed the character of the community.

Just agreeing, it is the amount of risk taking creating the divide between kayakers and canoers in general. The caveat being that assessing risk is very difficult in something as dynamic as whitewater.

Thank you for the link, it was a good read! I'm glad I don't need to go bigger to have more fun, but try harder stuff on the same rapids!! And I guess at my age you don't try to kill your self...
Just love open boating.

Like Lappie said... you don't need to go bigger to go bigger... You can take the same rapids that you run most of the time... and pick new challenging lines. Always challenging urself.

That was a fun video to watch. Glad the strainer was clean. That is the big part of Floodstage paddling....dealing with the unknown, as you float down a river barely in control.

Word to the wise of floodstage canoeing.... #1 you will be swamped most of the time. #2 make sure you have a roll. as the last place you want to be in flood is in the water. #3 DO NOT. I repeat. DO NOT depend on anyone else except yourself.


With all that said... floodstage paddling on a creek that you are very familiar with, can actually be a really good time, and a memorable experience(most likely because you will have a close call)

Thanks for reading my blog post, hopefully my experience can help people make more informed decisions, both kayakers and canoers alike as we obviously have much in common...

As far as my experience level, and especially referencing the last post by fullgnarlzoc, while by no means do I consider myself a great boater (solid III learning on class IV I'd say), I do know Chilliwack canyon quite well.

Doing 21 runs in a period of 2 months (1 run just over every 2 days average including a day of 3 straight runs) will get you quite familiar with a run...and at levels varying from .86 to 1.5 with the singular 2.5 as well (3 swims total, a high number yes).

If you want a canoe perspective, there is a tandem canoe team I've taken down the canyon 3 times, in a following role with a lead paddler, a singular lead role showing the easy canoe lines, and aggressively demoing a new boat at a known level with lots of support along to aid in guiding. I'd ask them, as they seemed quite assured with my experience.

I think the risks I take are on the upper border of what is manageable and reasonable, but within that border. It's a risky sport we play, and I'd say for my level of boating I'm on the higher end of the safety spectrum with my training and usual gear.

...and lets remember, there was another vastly better boater than I swimming at the same time in the same spot, not that it helps at all!

The feedback is appreciated, and I like your forum and look forward to continued joined boating with open boaters! See you on the river!

Adam

I've paddled with Adam quite a bit. Knowing his skills and the group he was with I would'nt say he was taking too big of a risk. This is not a class V run by any means. At low water its probabley a 3+ with medium-high flows it brings some of the holes to life and gives it a class IV rating. Its not a Canyon even though its named that. A gravel road runs most of the way down past all of the harder drops. It is a good reminder for all of us but don't over do it guys it was just a swim.

I'm one of the tandem canoeists Adam referenced in his blog. We went up to the river on Sunday when it was in full flood and decided it was un-canoeable at that level. We have the skill to handle the boat in what amounted to huge wave trains but despite having 2 high volume pumps in our boat would have been swamped and then inevitably dumped for sure.

Adam's a good natural paddler that has come a long way in a short period of time- by paddling lots and pushing his boundaries. He obviously pushed his limits a bit far on Sunday and was pretty lucky to have a solid rescue boat with him. (which is also good judgement too) It's my guess that it won't be long and Adam will be one of the best kayakers around.

In my opinion he was ready for the canyon at high water but he should have done it in a boat that he was more familiar with.

Ross and I really enjoy paddling with the kayakers- and there's very few canoeists around that want to do the runs that we're doing so our options are limited. I think kayakers are gun-shy of canoeists because the effort to rescue a canoe and 2 paddlers is just a big pain in the butt for kayakers who just roll back upright most of the time they go over. So we just stay upright, follow the good lines (for a canoe) and leave a little bit of extra room between us and the kayaks so we don't run over them by accident!

Thanks to the local kayak community for lettings us paddle with them.

Adam - Keep pushing it. You want to push it as much as you can without dying and without getting hurt(because you cant get better if you are sidelined). The trick is straddling that line, as it's a thin line.

Floodstage paddling is definitely a challenge no matter what craft you are in. It is much more do-able in a kayak. In a canoe you risk being a 300lbs projectile, and losing the ability to move the boat around how u need to....thus flushing into stuff you dont want to be flushed into.

If you find that things get to easy. Switch into the realm of creeking, where every feature is unique, tight, and action packed. The major difference here is, all your knowledge thus far has been learning to boat on water....in creeking - you will learn to boat on rocks.

http://vimeo.com/18123719

creeking is where it's at. My intuition tells me thats where you are headed.

Hot move by guy in Atom(?) at 3:32 or so.