the only two people I know that don't work on their forward strokes are Martikan and Tony Estanguet. Oh, actually they do. I couldn't disagree more with you on folks naturally having a good forward stroke. My forward took 3 years of coaching to get where it is. and it still needs work. I can recall drills where I would literally paddle through gates doing only onside forward strokes and using lean for the rest. soo many folks don't rotate enough, or when they do, they lose their back positioning. Yeah it's the stroke that folks spend 90% of their paddling time doing, but how often do you really think about making this stroke count? rarely... watch video of Tad Dennis creeking, he races C1 for the US, and he has a great stroke. granted you may not learn from his stroke as yours is different. but he still works on his all the time. Zero of the strokes I have are world class, but they do the job I ask. without a doubt, I would have a better forward, and the other would be a cross boof. I've done a few good ones, some not so, but it's been ages since I was in a creek boat.
In general, if you ever think you've got it down, look at slalom guys, check out martikan, Tony, Tasiadas, Tsakmakis. without paddle's their boat control is out of this world. and they can throw down in plastic...
i didn't mean to spur a racer/creeker discussion. But forward strokes are the fundamental stroke, and utterly important. Most of the big whitewater I do is all based on forward stroke placement, and timing of turns. It's amazing how much you can do if you try to not use your cross bow, working on that stroke is almost all I do. Even now that I'm done racing.
race boats are so fast, i bet its in the speed wing.
I'm with, Gnarlz on the forward stroke thing; and Jim Snyder come to it... People get too caught up in the "perfect technique" thing that comes out of the racing community with their basic strokes.
A solid Forward stroke is all thats required of a canoist, It's all the other things that have to be perfect, all the skills that carry you over, under or round the features that are out to get you... the forward stroke just has to reliably carry you between other more difficult moves, without buggering up the timing for those moves.
You don't need to achive perfect forward paddling efficency, if you're about to skid your nose up a rock, fly into the air and turn 90deg as you plummet, then land at a dead stop pointing back from whence you came!
Joshua Kelly - "More George Smiley than James Bond"
CBoats Moderator - Not necessarily representing the CBoats staff though...(I'll use words like "moderator", "We" and "CBoats" to make it clear when I am)
I resent the fact that you think working on a perfect forward stroke is simply due to the fact that "i'm a racer." I'm a creeker, playboater, Oc1er too. how many playboaters do you see who have a horrible forward stroke? how many C1's or (i know, blasphemy) kayakers do you see who have zero core rotation? Of course everything in this sport is race derived, the sport is race derived... People should work on their strokes all the time, there is a huge difference between paddling, and actively paddling. When you mind is on the motion, you can retain information and improve on it.
Not to mention that if you had a perfect forward stroke, you wouldn't have hit the rock, you'd have made the line...
if you want to see a good representation of a "race derived" forward stroke in a creek c1 youtube Benn Fraker. Isaac Levinson his paddling partner conveniently has a gopro.
cheers
-ids
race boats are so fast, i bet its in the speed wing.
TheKrikkitWars wrote:I'm with, Gnarlz on the forward stroke thing; and Jim Snyder come to it... People get too caught up in the "perfect technique" thing that comes out of the racing community with their basic strokes.
A solid Forward stroke is all thats required of a canoist, It's all the other things that have to be perfect, all the skills that carry you over, under or round the features ....
One of the hardest things for a beginner c-boater is making the dang boat go straight; one of things even intermediate boaters are weak at is accelerating from a stand still - both are dependent on a good forward stroke (er, "strokeS"). Maybe you don't need full-on "racer quality", maximum efficiency, but a good form forward stroke is a thing of great value and not as easy as it looks... And it's reeeeaaaaal easy to get sloppy due to fatigue, inattention, etc...
bearboater wrote:I resent the fact that you think working on a perfect forward stroke is simply due to the fact that "i'm a racer."
That wasn't a specific response to you, it's my thoughts on the sport at large and I know that Snyder has had an article saying simmilar up for years.
Also the sport isn't race derived, There's an argument for WW Kayaking being slalom derived, but WW canoeing doesn't share those roots to the same extent; It has roots in the voyguers of canada, and of course people tinkering in their sheds to improve equipment.
Joshua Kelly - "More George Smiley than James Bond"
CBoats Moderator - Not necessarily representing the CBoats staff though...(I'll use words like "moderator", "We" and "CBoats" to make it clear when I am)
fair enough, I should have been more specific, play boating is race derived. I understand the argument about the voyaguers, that was actually my introduction to ww, through long expedition style canoe trips. but i guess I think of ww paddling as working to get batter at ww, through the means of paddling ww, instead of the voyageuristic view of it being the means to get form lake to lake.
I don't know if I will ever understand the aversion people seem to have towards slalom racing/ers. maybe I am mis-reading it, but when you race, you can get a bonafide quantified analysis of your paddling, and improve it from there. the two go hand in hand, my level of paddling went way up very rapidly, when I started racing slalom.
cheers
-ids
race boats are so fast, i bet its in the speed wing.
sbroam wrote:One of the hardest things for a beginner c-boater is making the dang boat go straight; one of things even intermediate boaters are weak at is accelerating from a stand still - both are dependent on a good forward stroke (er, "strokeS"). Maybe you don't need full-on "racer quality", maximum efficiency, but a good form forward stroke is a thing of great value and not as easy as it looks... And it's reeeeaaaaal easy to get sloppy due to fatigue, inattention, etc...
bearboater wrote:
Not to mention that if you had a perfect forward stroke, you wouldn't have hit the rock, you'd have made the line...
You would also have the needed speed for a boof right after peeling out closely to boat-scout the drop, would have reached for that wave to surf it instead of getting flushed by current, would have reached further and strongly enough to pull yourself out of that whole instead of getting sipped back into it and beaten up, etc etc.
I'm with scott and bearboater on that one big time indeed.
I see a lot of average canoeist around that works a lot on the other strokes but can't make it to the next level because they're basically floatsams. Not that I am so good myself but looking back at some videos or looking at them paddlin it seems so many just lacks speed so often to throw their moves...
Is there a majority choice for the top 2 paddle strokes? I haven't noticed any real stand-outs, but there are many recommendations I do like that are not so obvious but REALLY helpful. Here are a couple I see as important:
1). onside stern pry - it saves me from having to flip offside and need that awesome, but failing, roll.
2). breathing - all too often, we take it for granted that breathing comes naturally and we tend to hold our breath at odd times which is a setup for a valsalva maneuver.
Make sure you work on your appropriate breathing.
C-boats Moderator
"Believe me, my young friend, there is nothing-absolutely nothing-half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats."
bearboater wrote:Not to mention that if you had a perfect forward stroke, you wouldn't have hit the rock, you'd have made the line...
You've heard of rock grinds, and flaring right? Cos' that rock is the line.
bearboater wrote:I don't know if I will ever understand the aversion people seem to have towards slalom racing/ers.
I learned in a club that was big into slalom, and I don't know about in the states, but this side of the pond the slalom comunity is snarky, elitist and lacks diversity of both people and attitudes to the point that there are very few racers who also do other things in paddlesport.
I hated it with a passion.
marclamenace wrote:I see a lot of average canoeist around that works a lot on the other strokes but can't make it to the next level because they're basically floatsams. Not that I am so good myself but looking back at some videos or looking at them paddlin it seems so many just lacks speed so often to throw their moves...
That's why I said solid, you have to be able to paddle forwards well and develop power quickly... but you don't need perfection so long as you go straight and can build speed; Other techniques demand perfection.
Joshua Kelly - "More George Smiley than James Bond"
CBoats Moderator - Not necessarily representing the CBoats staff though...(I'll use words like "moderator", "We" and "CBoats" to make it clear when I am)
First & foremost forward stroke because of what it gives back. A perfect forward stroke means that you can maximize the forward momentum and minimize the losses in correction -- and not just for racing, either -- also for making that one single stroke drive you into thank-god eddy above terminal drop! But having a perfect forward stroke means maximum economy of effort, and in achieving a straight-as-a-string path you master every tiny nuance of the paddle and every little body torque and weight-shift in the boat that keeps the mo going where it belongs (yes, even in a made-to-spin slalom boat). Having that you will have mastered being at one with your boat and paddle, and that sense and "feel" will carry over into honing every other stroke.
As for second, I would choose mastering crossbow -- it could be any of a number of crossbow "strokes", and crossbow "moves" in general tend to be a melding rather than any one "stroke". Maybe again a good strong forward propulsion stroke because once you can make the power go forward, in the process you have probably learned how to make it go elsewhere as well!
Of course, I guess I am assuming that you acquire these "perfect" strokes through a learning process, not just as a gift from the gods!
FWIW, Voyageurs were racer, they had to race agains the seasons, to be upstream and back before freez up with a load of fure to trade to get there money for the winter.... I also read that thay were averaging in the 60 strock a minut....
TheKrikkitWars wrote: I learned in a club that was big into slalom, and I don't know about in the states, but this side of the pond the slalom comunity is snarky, elitist and lacks diversity of both people and attitudes to the point that there are very few racers who also do other things in paddlesport.
I hated it with a passion.
Given the club setting that you described, I can understand your aversion to all things slalom. I'm sure that you can find such "unwelcoming" environments on this side of the pond if you look hard enough, but most of my experience with slalom racing in the States has thankfully been quite different.
Although both the number of paddlers participating in slalom and the number of scheduled races has fallen dramatically in recent decades, more often than not in the U.S. you'll find racers eager to encourage new paddlers and open to non-slalom paddling experiences.
With that clarification, I'll add my voice to Isaac's, Scott's, and marclamenace's endorsement of the benefits of slalom. I found slalom training to be the fastest way to advance my boat control skills. It helped me to focus on stroke efficiency and precise boat placement, while forcing me into situations that accelerated my development of water reading skills and my ability to respond quickly to ever-changing situations. All four of my kids learned to paddle through beginner slalom competitions and I still get comments about the amazing speed of their development stimulated by this environment.
Getting back to the question of this thread. I have to agree with icyone - forward stroke and crossbow strokes in all their infinite boundary-blurring manifestations.
When I teach my OC1 instructionals, I tell my students "the 3 most important strokes in solo whitewater canoeing are the forward stroke, the forward stroke, and the forward stroke".
A good forward stroke makes everything else easier; a sloppy forward stroke makes everything else harder.
If I had to pick a number 2 stroke, it would be the cross forward. And if pressed for a number 3 "stroke", it would be boat tilt.
I've even toyed with the idea of doing my whole instructional on a lake, and spending the whole weekend mainly on forward strokes, cross forward strokes, and boat tilt... but i don't think that would go over too well with my students.
a FullGnarlzOC video (No2)....
