C-Forum

You know, when I first started paddling III-IV, I was thinking that speed is something that I for sure want in a boat. Then I got the Detonator, and realized...you don't need speed when you can stroke it good. real good.

My primary boats are Mohawk's Maxim and the Viper 11. I love the Maxim. It is the most fun boat I have yet to paddle. It makes everything from Class II-V a blast. The speed in the maxim is not there. The boat is like any real short OC, it just accelerates. But it accels quickly. Because of it's agility, and dryness...I have no problem sacrificing speed, as I just don't need it. I can provide forward power constantly with onside and cross strokes...and that's all you need to go where you want.

I'd rather have a boat that can fit in any eddy, and and have the ability to run bone dry, as oppose to a boat that allows me to hit moves with ease. With that being said... I paddled the Viper 11 a couple days ago...and man it's fun to work the river with a speedy boat.

Which do you prefer? Speed over Agility? Which do you think is more suited for a 'FullGnarlz' creeking day? What is generally a drier style of paddling for you?

Accelleration and boofability come before speed. If you have those attributes, you don't need speed anywhere near as much.

I'd prefer a nice long fast boat on less steep, faster moving whitewater though, something like a Spark would have been increadible fun when I was out on the Nile.

I not sure if you can seperate speed & acceleration. A hull that is slow in top speed, probly slow to accelerate also.

Why do we need to choose between speed and agility? Any slalom oc can crush in the agility dept., an they aint that short!

micro-drainage sledding the short boats is purfect, but for anythin else u guys off the mark.

I like to sacrifice agility a little for speed. I'm very happy and comfortable with my Prelude, which has a lot of speed and accelerates pretty quickly and my C1 LL Remix is fast and not that agile and snappy. Speed, I believe is a better Canoe trait because we can't take as many strokes as a kayaker and we need the speed and glide to power through stuff and more speed makes for bigger boofs.

Acceleration and top speed absolutely can be separated - my top speed in a 16' boat is a lot higher than in an 8' boat. But, it takes quite a few more strokes to get to any given speed in that 16' boat than the 8' boat. Top speed is very much a factor of length (hydrodynamics); acceleration (esp from a standstill) is more a factor of mass and power to move the mass (and shape?).

Yeap, exactly.

And that was one of the problem I had with my prelude at the time: the boat was fast (relatively good glide) but heavy and was hard for that to come to its speed. I think when you are athletic and weight 200+pounds you may do with a heavier boat better than when you weight 160pounds.

But then again my prelude years were my two first solo ww years and man was I prying that stern a bunch... I have to jump in one again and see how it moves now that my forward kicker can go straight...

With the existence of the Ledge, and its uncanny ability to weigh nearly as much as a 16ft boat, maybe some realworld testing is in order

Still can't get ma head aroun the seperation, tho. I imagine for a given load a short hull is gonna have more drag than a long hull regardless of actual hull weight.
I can definitely see hull weight affecting agility, but i can see wetted surface area affecting it too, just like it would effect speed & acceleration.

Perhaps a point 2 point accelration test would be better than considering accelration to top speed.

Longboatin wrote:Still can't get ma head aroun the seperation, tho.

Perhaps a point 2 point accelration test would be better than considering accelration to top speed.

That would be considered as boat acceleration, I beleive.

Top speed of a boat (for a same load weight and power applied) would be considered speed of the hull (fast / slow boat).

That's my understanding at least...

When I'm on steep creeks speed is less important and that's why the L'Edge is my favorite boat for steep creeking.

I actually like having a boat with a lot of hull speed when I'm river running (I think it's fun to do attainment moves, tough ferries, etc. that require speed) so I usually paddle my spark on runs like the gauley and ocoee.

Bigger boats also give up bigger enders. Big canoe enders and pirouettes are two of my favorite moves to pull off and you have to be in a long boat to get big air.

Not that I'm going out on a limb to be agreeing with Dooley, but I think he is exactly right. I don't think you need a fast boat to get around on a river when it's only 15 feet wide, but some of the big rivers in Maine have some serious Z moves. Sometimes long ferries in big current are what you need to hit the "best" line, and a slow boat just *won't* do it.

But I paddle a Taureau, so clearly I think short-ey boats have a place too.

Shep

Yup,what those two guys said.Speed isn't needed on creeks but necessary on bigger water,especially when performing.I never understand when posts are made regarding speed of creeker c-1 converts,how much more do you need when creeking,the flow is enough with good timed strokes.

Good post though,another aspect to improve and contemplate.

Bring on the melt,skiing is still awesome but i need open water!!

I've always been a big fan of speed. I started out in an ME and quickly found out how much I relied on the speed after I got into another, slower boat.

I break it down like this....speed = momentum. Momentum is definitely a factor when punching holes, not getting thrown by waves, clearing the hole at the bottom of a drop and flying through aggressive eddy lines. Of course angle and other things come into play.


Just puss your way down into a hole and tell me speed isn't important.

Plus..every time I've failed a big boof has been due to starting too close to the drop and not putting enough zip into the approach because I'm worried about angle. The stern correction is my worst enemy...but this is of course a technique issue. But it clearly illustrates my need for speed.

Depends on the water I am running.
On a crreek, I want acceleration and manueuverability.
On big water like the Grand canyon, I want speed. Lots of it.

TGG!

Something I've noticed...

The Acceleration of a creekboat seems to be related more to it's ability to catch in the flow and reach at least the same speed as the water quickly.

It's interesting that you say that because in big water, I often really like the acceleration and maneuverability of a small boat like a Prelude. The advantage is I can quickly change direction to handle a reversal or a wave coming from a different direction, and if I need to move somewhere in a stroke or two, the Prelude responds fast. The negative is that the boat is wet and it doesn't take many waves coming over the side to fill it. And it has little glide. Which is why I can also see what you're saying. I've been in big water in my Dagger Genesis and if I'm looking to make a beeline across the river to avoid some nastiness, the Genesis, once it's up to speed, is going to go farther faster with way more glide than the Prelude. For the GC, I'd probably bring the Genesis ... though it would be fun to try it in both boats.