C-Forum

After a few seasons of dabbling - as much with outfitting as with paddling - I finally did "a real river run" in a C-1 (Redline). It was busy class II+ rock gardens that's very easy/comfortable in my Outrage.

So, here's a few things I don't like about C-1ing:

Uncomfortable. Even with a relatively high saddle and jacked up rim I can't get my thighs in there.

Labour intensive. Outfitting is a never-ending job, and it's still not done!

Nerve racking. I'm not used to needing my roll, and I flip way more in C-1. My rolls got me up, but barely, I'm better at that in my open boat too.

Boring. Despite the skirt and the small boat, as a newbie I can't really surf and play with ease. Open boat would be more fun.

Lame. Not being any good, I take weird strokes, not enough on my offside, and am too worried about flipping/rolling to paddle aggresively and have fun. I become more of a floater/bobber/bracer. The physical discomfort doesn't help.

And the #1 thing - what a pain to get in and out of! I spent more time watching for a good spot to get out of the darn thing than good features to play on or moves to make. Getting out is hard when your feet are asleep, and getting back into the boat, straps and skirt is even harder, while trying not to float away or flip. It was starting to piss me off.

I almost flipped to my offside while paddling a few times, but saved it with leans (air braces). I instinctively used an offside low-brace once during a turn - it was fine as long as you only need a little boost and catch it early, a forward stroke would probably be better unless the low-brace is right there, I did it by accident because I had to. I did flip twice, both times doing an offside eddy turn and leaned on the stroke too much I guess, basically following my paddle into the drink.

So, to those of you who went through this frustration and stuck with it, what's the upside, and what are the keys getting more confident?

Pat.

p.s. My shoulder is still tender from shoddy rolls, and my thighs are still tender from the cockpit, but I can feel my feet again.

I don't think you gave yourself a very good start by choosing a redline as your first C1, something like a H3 or and Everest (Wide, good range of stability, deep enough to sit inside would have been more stable, more comfortable and more enjoyable.

For me the selling points are it's faster, drier, and less unpredictable on steep whitewater; and realistically it's pretty much the only way I'm going to get to run big volume whitewater.

Also you can pirroette, which I think is reason enough for everyone to own a C1!

hah! thanks for sharing pat. that sounds about right. just wondering, how much of you is there? are you a little heavy for the redline? any boat I have had a hard time getting my legs into has been too small, period. I had bruised thighs for about a month after trying out the mafia....not a good idea, but i did get my first sort of combat roll that day!

stick with it, get a better boat. and get back to outfitting~

If you can find one you are physically comfortable in, that would alleviate most of what you experienced - one big enough to be comfortable would also be more stable reducing most of your other complaints. Based on your size, a Remix 79 might be as small as you'd want to go - Josh's recommendations sound good. Maybe give it another go in a bigger boat? You might be more comfortable in a smaller boat once you've gotten used to it. But then again C-1 isn't for everybody.

Edit :

The Redline was a great boat *in its time* - many newer boats make much better conversions. I used to paddle a Whiplash and loved it - but, my first 5 minutes with that boat in class II+ saw me flipping and rolling 5 times (in front of dozens at Nantahala Falls at the Fall Sale...). After years of wider, more forgiving boats, I'm sure if I hopped back in it now, I'd spend as much time or more upside down...

On my first trip in a C1, I agreed with all of your points. However, I grew to love that boat (a Z) and definitely have my reasons for C1ing.

Mostly...

1. No dumping while Playing
2. It is cheaper to convert a playboat than buy a Blackfly, as much as I would love one!
3. Warmer early/late season outings.
4. TONS of hulls to try converting. This may only appeal to me because I have an old Dagger saddle I throw in my c1s.
5. Like Krikkit said, also good for bigwater stuff or places where you can't dump easily.

I may convert a creeker later this year simply because of the no dumping in gorged out places, but the outfitting kind of scares me when it comes to creeking. Much rather have my bulkhead in my Prelude that I can literally jump out of!

Hey Pat.
Definately boat selection is important.I have a H3 255 with a seat almost 7'' high,not any more uncomfortable than an ocI and still sit inside the boat and don't need hip pads.I find it very stable and forgiving.I can surf pretty well in it.

If we ever get together you ought to give it a whirl,i think you'd really like to paddle it.It;s so light and easy to paddle that after some long class 3 +.(17 km)i'm not near as tired as paddling my Nitro.Less heavy,hard strokes.Some forward strokes and a couple corrections at the bow and it's all good.

Aug. long a bunch of us are gonna' be at the Bull.You and your buds should come along,good excuse to try the boat.

Paul

Flipped two times on your first C1 run and complaining about it? That's rather pretty good!
My yakky buddies though my first C1 day was rather... entertaining to look at!

I had the same experience than you pretty much, uncomfortable in a boat that was too small for me, too low of a saddle (that goes with the narrow hull) oh what a day.

The cockpit of my new 4fun is incredibly roomy... for a K hull. You would definitely enjoy an XL cockpit like this one.

The paddling technique is also different to the point that you'll take a couple runs to get comfortable throwing the boat around before you can somehow enjoy the other interesting stuff you can get out of a C1: sinking ends, surfing advantages, careless flip-flop-no-bail and hitting the big features just for the heck instead of constantly looking for the nice dry lines. Stick with it for a couple days in a decent and decently outfitted boat before to call it off...

I struggled a lot at first too.
My first trip was on the cal salmon and all I remember about that run was flipping about five times while just sitting in a surging eddy next to a big, beautiful play wave. I was so frustrated I almost walked off. Never did surf that wave.
It wasn't untill I got an h3, 4 years and a couple of other crappy boats later, that I realised it was the boats that sucked, not me. And it could be fun to paddle c1. And I knew that boat was good within the first 30 seconds.

all that to say I think it's just the boat that you don't like. C1 still has a chance.

I agree with everything said so far and wanted to add that it is much easier to roll a C1 than an open boat in my opinion. For playboating and just having fun, its less strain on my shoulder to get thrown around in a C1, not to say I don't enjoy open boating too though.

C1-ing... it's just not for everyone

I pretty much agree with what's already been said... the Redline is just too small/narrow for you imo and it's just not going to be anything like the type of boats you are accustomed to no matter how you outfit it.

What made you decide "this is going to be the boat for me" in the first place Pat... just out of curiousity? Was your intention to use it as a river-runner, playboat... or ??? I realize there aren't a lot of choices for boats out in your part of the country but maybe looking for an Atom or a "Z" or just something with a little better (wider, more stable more fun) platform to begin with might eliminate about half of the complaints on your list. A more stable boat is just going to give you more confidence and make the learning curve far easier and much more rewarding in the long run. Frankly I don't really care for boats that I have to spend a ton of time "getting used to"... I'd just rather go out on the water and enjoy my time.

Larry Horne wrote:It wasn't untill I got an h3, 4 years and a couple of other crappy boats later, that I realised it was the boats that sucked, not me. And it could be fun to paddle c1. And I knew that boat was good within the first 30 seconds.

just to be clear Larry... those were all kayaks right?


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Pat, try a different boat! Get in toucch with Pierre La Paddelle, he is in Williams Lake and has a sweet Remix 79 for sale that's already outfiutted as a C1, and His outfitting is top notch, including a one-pull skirt and strap release.That boat is, as already mentioned, much more appropriate for a guy your size than the redline.

TGG!

If my aged knees could still tolerate c-1, I'd still be paddling c-1.

I've never paddled a conversion. I'm sure some are good, but suspect some are no better than my old Sage. ("Sage" is a spice good for stuffing a turkey.)

Some people's knees and ankles never adjust to c-1. I was lucky---- in spite of my height, my legs made the bend and my ankles straightened to lie on the bottom of the boat.

I'm paddling OC-1 now, but if my knees keep complaining, I'll go to the dark side.

the great gonzo wrote:Pat, try a different boat! Get in toucch with Pierre La Paddelle, he is in Williams Lake and has a sweet Remix 79 for sale that's already outfiutted as a C1, and His outfitting is top notch, including a one-pull skirt and strap release.That boat is, as already mentioned, much more appropriate for a guy your size than the redline.

TGG!

there you go man... at the least... go demo the thing and report back to folks

Craig Smerda wrote: just to be clear Larry... those were all kayaks right?


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nice try smerda
but nope! the atom was my first (and worst) c1.