I am interested in others thoughts on an oc whitewater boat that isn't so overly maneuverable. I know this might not sound right when looking for a whitewater boat but for my purpose I don't think I want a boat that spins on a dime. I mostly paddle class 2 & 3 with flat water between and handling these overly maneuverable boats in the flats is killer and takes the fun out of it. I currently have an Esquif Taureau and an old Dagger Genesis. I want to like my Taureau but find it just to much of a handful in the flats. Nothing but work to keep it going straight until I get to the next rapid. So I always go back to the Genesis which is much easier for me to handle without killing myself in the flats.
I own several down river solos like a Wenonah argosy which are great in the flats but the Class 3 on my local run is to much for these kind of boats. So after all this rambling, any advice on under 12 foot models that might track decently straight for a pur ww boat. I know it's kind of a contradiction type question as ww boats are intended to turn quick. Would love to hear any advice if there is any on some models that might track somewhat decent. I am fairly new to ww so my flatwater paddling experience and technique need tweaked for this different style of paddling too.
Maneuverability help
Moderators: kenneth, sbroam, TheKrikkitWars, Mike W., Sir Adam, KNeal, PAC, adamin
xl13
Not under 12 feet but the xl13 from Mohawk has less rocker than others.
Anything under 12 feet is going to be pretty slow.... That is just the way the laws of hull speed work.
However, I don't mind paddling my prelude on flat stuff between drops. There seems to be a law here in Maine that all creek runs start with at least a 1/4 mile of flat water before there is any gradient. It keeps with the kayakers just fine and holds a line well enough. Tracking is not as good as a 12 foot boat would be, but some stern pry/bow draw action keeps it going the right way.
But, I have to ask. What is wrong with paddling the Genesis? If it works for you in the drops and on the flats between, why not stick with it and save the Taureau for the more continuous stuff.
Just my two-cents...
However, I don't mind paddling my prelude on flat stuff between drops. There seems to be a law here in Maine that all creek runs start with at least a 1/4 mile of flat water before there is any gradient. It keeps with the kayakers just fine and holds a line well enough. Tracking is not as good as a 12 foot boat would be, but some stern pry/bow draw action keeps it going the right way.
But, I have to ask. What is wrong with paddling the Genesis? If it works for you in the drops and on the flats between, why not stick with it and save the Taureau for the more continuous stuff.
Just my two-cents...
-Anthony
"I'm gonna run this one river left I think.... So far river left, that I'm gonna be on the bank. With my boat on my shoulder."
"I'm gonna run this one river left I think.... So far river left, that I'm gonna be on the bank. With my boat on my shoulder."
I think that you might achieve your goal in another way, by adopting a forward stroke that makes paddling short whitewater boats easier, without a lot of tiresome correction strokes. When I learned to get my stroke "cab forward" and to end the power application as the paddle passed my knee, I found that much less J stroke or ruddering was needed.
Of course, cruising a ww boat down the flats is always affected by winds and twitchy responses to swirly currents. But I do it all the time while having to correct no more than 25% of the time. The "cab forward" stroke pulls the boat forward by the nose.
This issue is treated briefly on the Ford/Dickert/Foote video Drill Time. We're essentially discussing it on the J stroke poll thread I started recently. With your Taureau and other very short boats, a cab forward stroke actually works better than it will in your Genesis, because the farther forward your stroke, relative to the length of the hull in the water, the more happy the boat will be to follow along.
Note that I'm not suggesting you lean way forward. No more than 20 degrees lean when paddling hard, near straight up when cruising. And you don't have to put a lot of "C" on the front of the stroke. You just need to use a full, comfortable reach, and use a firm catch so the work on the paddle gets started and finished early. The boat will run cocked just slightly crabwise, cocked a smidge toward your paddling side. With each stroke, a little mound of water will build up on the opposite side of the bow, and during recovery, that little mound and the angular momentum of your body will bring the bow back toward the paddling side. It seems like magic, but it works, stroke after stroke.
Boats designed to run straight actually respond less well to this approach. I do not think you will find *any* short whitewater boat that meets your expectations. I sure don't know of any. Some whitewater boats with harder chines and slab sides may tend to run straight when driven as fast as one can, so the sides bite in like rails. But you can't pick apart class 3 rapids that way.
Of course, cruising a ww boat down the flats is always affected by winds and twitchy responses to swirly currents. But I do it all the time while having to correct no more than 25% of the time. The "cab forward" stroke pulls the boat forward by the nose.
This issue is treated briefly on the Ford/Dickert/Foote video Drill Time. We're essentially discussing it on the J stroke poll thread I started recently. With your Taureau and other very short boats, a cab forward stroke actually works better than it will in your Genesis, because the farther forward your stroke, relative to the length of the hull in the water, the more happy the boat will be to follow along.
Note that I'm not suggesting you lean way forward. No more than 20 degrees lean when paddling hard, near straight up when cruising. And you don't have to put a lot of "C" on the front of the stroke. You just need to use a full, comfortable reach, and use a firm catch so the work on the paddle gets started and finished early. The boat will run cocked just slightly crabwise, cocked a smidge toward your paddling side. With each stroke, a little mound of water will build up on the opposite side of the bow, and during recovery, that little mound and the angular momentum of your body will bring the bow back toward the paddling side. It seems like magic, but it works, stroke after stroke.
Boats designed to run straight actually respond less well to this approach. I do not think you will find *any* short whitewater boat that meets your expectations. I sure don't know of any. Some whitewater boats with harder chines and slab sides may tend to run straight when driven as fast as one can, so the sides bite in like rails. But you can't pick apart class 3 rapids that way.
Thanks for the advice so far. I do really like my genesis but am caught up in the new short boat craze I guess. It just seems more fun without all that boat out in front of you.
I will try the technique tips. I normally paddle a hundred plus miles a year, but mostly flat water and mild rivers. The ww technique might take some getting used to and help me keep the boat going straight. Thanks for the advice. Much to learn compare to the sit and switch marathon racing style I am used to.
I will try the technique tips. I normally paddle a hundred plus miles a year, but mostly flat water and mild rivers. The ww technique might take some getting used to and help me keep the boat going straight. Thanks for the advice. Much to learn compare to the sit and switch marathon racing style I am used to.
-
Smurfwarrior
- C Maven
- Posts: 1491
- Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 3:09 am
- Location: Utah
so far. -
Craig Smerda
- L'Edge Designer
- Posts: 2815
- Joined: Tue Dec 10, 2002 3:59 am
- Location: WaUSAu Wisconsin USA North America Earth, etc.
Aye...I second the motion... all in favor?
Anyway, any boat seems fast after a Taureau!
Kelvin.
http://www.sweet-skills.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Here's a Dagger Impulse in Pennsylvania--
"(PA) Dagger Impulse WW Canoe, solo outfitted, saddle & cages. Good condition, classic dagger green royalex. NW Pennsylvania, $550 firm. Pictures available. Thanks Ed 814-506-5091 -- Submitted by: Nightswimmer"
Not mine. Might not be what you're looking for, but it is a good bit shorter than the Genesis.
"(PA) Dagger Impulse WW Canoe, solo outfitted, saddle & cages. Good condition, classic dagger green royalex. NW Pennsylvania, $550 firm. Pictures available. Thanks Ed 814-506-5091 -- Submitted by: Nightswimmer"
Not mine. Might not be what you're looking for, but it is a good bit shorter than the Genesis.