Prelude VS Nitro

[PatrickOC1]

Im looking for a river runner to replace my Nitro here in the near future was looking for peoples opinions on the Esquif prelude havent seen too many of them around in the northeast seeing mostly detonators Mad river outrages around. Im a smaller paddler and the nitro is too slow/big for me. How does the Prelude stack up as far as Speed, Stability, play ability etc..... I see the weights are near the same and ive gotten used to carrying the Nitro so im not too worried about that. Any help is usefull.

[TNbound]

The Prelude to the Nitro is kind of a night and day comparison.

I've never paddled a nitro, but my understanding is that it is a reasonably predictable and forgiving boat. Since I paddle a prelude, I'll comment mostly on that.

The prelude is so far my favorite boat. It is quick to turn, accelerate and edge. In fact, many find it a little too quick to edge as the primary stability is not all that good. I personally find that it has a good secondary stability right before the gunwale touches the water. Boofs well, goes up and over holes well... basically everything you could want in a boat except that little primary stability thing, but who needs that as long as you have some secondary in reserve. Can't have it all.

In short, the Prelude is going to feel like a F1 car next to a Nitro. If you are seeing Outrages around, that may be a more reasonable step up rather than going directly to a Prelude.

My two cents... take what you will.

[PatrickOC1]

The speed of the nitro is my biggest concern, the lack of primary stability means I get to work on my roll I guess Ive test drove a few mad rivers with some pretty depressing outfitting but thats probably why they seem unresponsive like the nitro. I just get frustrated missing moves because I cant quite get the speed up in two or three strokes.

[jatakasawa]

You've echoed my concerns about the Nitro. Too slow...missing moves I know I could have hit in another boat. Frankly it was becoming a liability to my boating and the reason I started C-1'ing. My advice...go for the Prelude. Sure there will be a learning curve but what you gain from having a more nimble craft will surpass any immediate frustrations by far.

[milkman]

I paddle a Prelude and my path to it was from an Ovation (very much like a Nitro) to a Phantom to a Solito, back to a Phantom, then the Prelude.

I love the Prelude. But it should be pointed out that while it has great acceleration for a short boat, it is a short boat. It doesn't have much glide. So, it's quick to get moving, but requires much paddling to keep it moving. You won't make attainments onto waves that someone in an Outrage can do. But you will be able to make super fast changes in direction and drive into small eddies. To me, it seems to have comparable acceleration to a Zoom. It accelerates faster than a Phantom, Solito, and L'edge. It's less edgy than a Zoom, but carves great and is easier to surf than a Zoom.

[FullGnarlzOC]

Patrick - like said before it's very night and day... to the point where I wonder...why the Prelude? Why not a boat in between the two? What exactly are you looking for? what is your style?

With the prelude - your going to want to have very good river reading skills, adjustment to currents in lean and balance, and have very effective onside and offside forward strokes(in strong currents)- in addition to a killer roll.

Perhaps there are better boats out there for you? Feel free to send me a PM and we can talk more. I'd love to help get you in a boat that you'll love to paddle.

With that being said - the prelude is a great boat for the right paddler.

[milkman]

No offense to Tommy here, but it doesn't seem like a proper thing for a sponsored paddler to ask someone on a forum to go to private messages to discuss boats. We all could learn from the discussion.

[FullGnarlzOC]

Non-taken... I wasn't thinking about the 'general public here' I was thinking about the person who asked the question...But your right I suppose everyone can benefit from the differences between the Nitro / Prelude...anyways, here's the PM I sent Pat. feel free to agree/disagree

"Patrick - You can look into the Detonator, which is basically a shrunken Nitro...

http://www.fullgnarlz.com/videos/video/ ... the-series - Series of me paddling a Detonator. I've taken it on the Upper Gauley and all sorts of tiny Creeks. It can go anywhere...

Paddling for Mohawk now, I have a Maxim and Viper 11. I am 170lbs... and those boats are right in my weight range.

The Viper 11 is a boat that you can surely grow into. It allows you to feel the water much more than the Nitro, while still having primary stability. Hard chines teach you to use them with the water and become a great paddler (much more than a soft chined boat like an outrage)

I'd feel better recommending a Maxim or Prelude if I got to see you paddle. They aren't boats for everyone. The major advantage of a Maxim over a prelude is, it's dryer, lighter, and quicker - with relatively the same stability issues (or lack thereof). The Maxim is made of Royelex (although Mohawk is working on a PE version as we speak)... so the downside of Royelex is it wears when you start steep creeking, but if you don't do a whole lot of that - you may really like the fact that your boat is hardly 40lbs.

Maxim is a boat that has allowed me to continue to progress and not hit a plateau. If you are pumped about canoeing, and getting better...you may want to really think about it. I would advise against a Royalex Maxim if you are planning on running it down class V+ drops. But if you are just using it for class II-IV - I think you'd learn to love it and would be a much better paddler in the end.

Thoughts?

- Tommy"

[FullGnarlzOC]

before I get bashed for the whole soft chine vs hard chined thing... While most agree that chines are a matter of preference... I believe that harder chine boats require more skill, you get more out of it, and in turn become a better paddler... but thats just my opinion. I've only been paddling for 2 years, so what do i know.

...and this is how things get off-topic. so let's shift the focus back into getting Patrick a boat that would best fit him.

[TNbound]

The major advantage of a Maxim over a prelude is, it's dryer, lighter, and quicker - with relatively the same stability issues (or lack thereof).

Now, I know the maxim is definitely lighter...
But drier and quicker?
If you mean quicker changing directions, perhaps. Straightline speed, I think the prelude would come out on top...
As far as dryness, I think that may be up for debate. Never paddled a maxim, but they don't seem to be that much drier than any other little boat.

[FullGnarlzOC]

TNBound - Maxim is hands down dryer than the Prelude. The Prelude is 'straight line speed' a little bit faster... But the Maxim makes up for that in quickness, changing direction, and using the water to gain speed...thus I call it 'faster'...

The bulbous ends combined with rocker of the maxim is what makes it dryer. I can punch class IV holes with a maxim completely dry, or little holes, competely dry because of the ends... whereas the prelude tends to 'knife' in more.

Watch this video of the Maxim in action - http://vimeo.com/25330632 - You can see what I'm talking about w/ the bulbous ends causing the boat to pop up and stay dry...

I feel the Maxim is more high performance than the Prelude... so why do people paddle a Prelude over a Maxim? Because they want PE, and because of public misconception about the Maxim... at least this is what I gather from my experience.

Now - what I forgot to mention was that the new BlackFly lines would be a good choice too, but given the fact that Patrick is looking for a boat for II-IV, and is 145lbs... I suggest a Maxim ((under 40lbs)) - Both the Prelude and maxim would require a learning curve, of which Patrick is already aware of, and ready to meet the challenge....which I gotta say, Kudos to you Patrick for thinking about stepping up from a Nitro to more high performance boat - your skills will be greatly improved because of it. A nitro is a nice boat to get on the water in, and gain interest in the sport, but it has definitely limitations.

[FullGnarlzOC]

Patrick - If you can get yourself around the PA area and would like to try some boats out - theres enough paddlers around here where we could get you in almost any boat. In particular: Viper 11, Maxim, Prelude, Detonator, Outrage, Option, Ion, and many more...

[jakke]

I have paddled a Nitro a couple times, do own a Viper11 and do own a prelude.

My thoughts of the Nitro or kind of similar: slow, hard to accelerate, hard to tilt. It feels like driving a tank.

The viper11 might be a good step up starting from the Nitro. It's still fairly stable, but already quite responsive. It's not nearly as dry as the Nitro though. But overall, after paddling lots of different canoes, I think the Viper11 is the canoe with the best balanced properties at the moment, in the 11 series, period.

A prelude is something totally different, and it really depends on your prior paddling experience. For me it is a real skill booster, but you have to be prepared to take the lessens that canoe will teach you. I'm on the heavy side for a prelude (think about 200lbs?) but I do like it a lot. Like mentioned, primary stability is almost non-existant. It likes to be driven from the bow. But it's fast to accelerate and a lot drier then the Viper.

The zoom is pretty cool as well. It's a notch faster then the prelude, I find it a tiny bit more stable, but it's a really nice paddle as well. I did not spent much time in it, so I can't comment too much on it. But it's definetly easier to roll then the prelude.

Never tried a maxim, and it's not going to happen any soon since I don't know anyone owning one, and I'm not having the finance to get one, already have to replace my Viper11.

But the advice, as always: try before you buy. And if you try something more extreme like maxim, zoom or prelude, try to estimate if you are going to like that boat, since chances are good, you won't be able to pull of the moves you want right away if you haven't been in such kind of canoe before.

Oh, and no-one mentioned the L'Edge untill now. I have to think it over a bit more, but if you're not going over a class II a lot, I wouldn't even consider a L'Edge. But looking at your question I'm guessing you run harder stuff.

[Einar]

Personally I would invest in some gas and head to a festival and demo some of the mentioned boats. The choice and variety of styles mentioned in these posts is quite large, all good boats in their own way, but a day trying the bunch would be instructive.

I like a hard chine, always owned a Viper 11 but I would compare a Maxim and a Prelude and a Blackfly Option and a Zoom and... I would bring a lot of cash.
As to stability I find that I quickly get over the lack of initial stability but lack of secondary is a deal breaker for me and tough to roll counts too.
In class 4 you are now in charge of your own rescue.
Some days the dryness of a "bulbous bow" seems appealing. It can be a lot of work positioning to keep a sharp hull dry.

Even if you weren't buying a demo of that much variety would be fun.

[FullGnarlzOC]

Einar - great to hear that you are another Viper lover

Also - your comments on trying all the boats brings an idea up that seems to be rather do-able(and a great idea)... Have a 'all canoe demo day'...where people could get together, bring tons of different boats...and have a boat swap - so that people could demo all sorts of different boats so they can compare and have a better idea of what all sorts of canoes have to offer...

I wish you were closer, or that there was a maxim out west for you to try. If you're ok with lack of initial stability, you may really enjoy paddling a Maxim.

Your right about it being a lot of work to constantly position a boat to stay dry. That is one of the main benefits of the Maxim - the bow hits the water and causes the boat to pop up on its on, so worrying about your angle as you hit waves and holes is less of a concern. So you can focus more on your line, and where you want to go.

My goal is to get more people in the Maxim, and get them some quality river time in it...as I must admit, it's not really a boat that you get in and are immediately pleased with it's characteristics. It's more of a boat that you learn to love. I've paddled the Maxim for 4 months now, and I love it more and more everytime I touch the water with it. It's my GO TO boat for everything. I'm very much looking forward to paddling it on the Upper Gauley this year.

For the past month - I've been working on what slalom racers call "pivot turns". Basically instead of leaning on your inside edge when you Eddy out... I drop the outside chine first, then shift my weight back to the inside chine. This causes the boat to do a 'super snap' into the eddy, and stop the boat dead in its tracks. It works awesome for Pour-over eddys, micro eddys, and eddys with tons of current differential. If anyone reading this has great eddying skills, I highly recommend trying the outside to inside edge Eddy turn. It is an absolute blast to use when catching eddys. Makes class II eddys fun again!