C-Forum

I am a kayaker but thinking of going to a canoe for a change and so I can take my kids with me. I looking for something to paddle solo on up to class 3+(Chattooga section3) but also take a small child(3/5year old) down something like the the Tuckaseegee.(class 2)
In a perfect world I know I need 2 canoes but for now I need to do it with one. I plan on solo canoeing for the winter and spring before taking my children with me.
Any suggestions on canoes will be appreciated. Also outfitting does the triple saddle like from Mohawk work good or is there a better way to out fit a solo/tandem canoe?
Thanks
River Ghoat

Check out a Probe 14 with a tandem saddle.

http://www.mohawkcanoes.com/whitewater.html

I've been looking in to similar boats, though I'm thinking of tripping too.

For more whitewater the ME is a really nice boat both for solo and tandem use.

You can always look for a Caption with a triple saddle set up you might be able to "solo" with both kids that way (depending on the water and kids!)

I've been using a Millbrook AC DC and have been impressed with it's flatwater speed for what it is (it is the boat I started out in Whitewater in decades ago, so I'm already familiar with how it handles II / III / III+ water). My wife likes its stability too (vs. our Sawyer Champ II).

The triple saddles from Mohawk does work very well. Esquif has produced a good number of Vertige X's with a triple saddle as well. If you really get the bug for canoeing, you probably will end up with a smaller solo-only boat for the class III stuff, but in the short-term, both the Probe 14 and Vertige X can definitely be paddled solo with style in Class III.

Have fun and welcome to the club!

Shep

grab up yerself a cheaper used tandem to start. Like OldTown discovery, Mad river explorer, hek even a coleman would be passable. easy water no sweat, an takin kids an goin campin etc would a tandem boats forte. Cheap an fun is what I'd suggest shootin for. You can always get sumthin more sporty for yourself down the road.

In order of my preference.
Dagger/ Mad River Caption or MR ME or Mohawk Probe 14 or a Dagger Caper for solo/ tandem whitewater.

I'd also suggest something like a discovery, explorer or bluehole OCA. For what you're wanting to do they're more versatile than the the whitewater specfic boats, ie caper, caption etc. They'll also be very stable while you learn to canoe and the kids learn to enjoy the river.

jc70 wrote:I'd also suggest something like a discovery, explorer or bluehole OCA. For what you're wanting to do they're more versatile than the the whitewater specfic boats, ie caper, caption etc. They'll also be very stable while you learn to canoe and the kids learn to enjoy the river.

YES

But it might really be hard for a kayaker to control - no knock intended. These boats require a whole element of technique, that even most of today's current open-boaters do not possess.

As always try-try-try before you buy.

Your three to five year old is obviously not going to be able to assist you in controlling the boat effectively so you will need to be positioned close enough to amidships to be able to utilize strokes in the bow quadrants of the canoe.

The triple saddle arrangements do not always allow for optimum positioning of the bow and/or stern paddler in a 14 foot boat because there isn't enough room for a third position between them when they are optimally placed. Furthermore, if you are paddling with a young child who is very light, utilizing the bow and stern positions of a triple saddle will probably result in the boat being very bow light.

Personally, I would look for any of the boats Tommy C1 mentioned and set up a solo center pedestal. Leave enough room in front of the saddle for a small folding chair or a removable pedestal for your child to sit on. You may need to place some weight in the stern stem to trim the boat, but you will be much better positioned to utilize both bow and stern correction strokes.

For a removable minicell pedestal, the TKO sold by Harmony is not too bad:

http://www.harmonygear.com/product/0/80 ... O_Pedestal

It needs trimming before it is comfortable but it has two 2" diameter holes going through it laterally. This allows it to be secured to the hull bottom using 1 1/2" or 2" diameter nylon webbing and two daisy chain anchor strips like these:

http://www.harmonygear.com/products/441 ... chor_Point

That allows you to set up a removable pedestal that would suit your needs somewhat better IMO.

Just about any modern whitewater tandem will do the trick, but you'll want to place the saddles to optimize the boat for you and your kid(s). Typical triple setups are less than ideal.

I use a Dagger Dimension (no longer made) - 16 foot long boat meant for class 3/4 tandem tripping. The Esquif Canyon, on paper at least, looks like a similar boat. Probe 14, Caption, and Vertige X all would lend themselves to this sort of setup as well.

I've got it outfitted with three saddles - bow and stern were placed so the boat trims properly with me in the back and a 140 lb paddler in front. Center saddle was placed so the boat trims just slightly bow light with a 70 lb paddler in front.

For solo, it's less than ideal. If I had to, I could solo it down the LY or the Ocoee, but it'd be sort of like soloing a raft. I've screwed around with it in the Ramcat play hole a few times, and it gave me good hole escape practice, since all that volume with just one paddler is VERY retentive once it's sideways .

For kid tandem, it's great. When my kids were really little, I would actually use the stern saddle, and have both of them on the saddles in front of me. I still was close enough to the middle to be able to throw cross strokes as needed. Only downside is its width - my 7 year old son is still too small to be able to effectively do cross draws - the sides are just too high and far apart.

There's a picture of the triple setup in one of the 'family paddling' issues of AW. It works fine for running easy stuff when the kids are too small to be of much help, and it will swallow a lot of gear. I've carried both kids plus camping gear on the Greenbrier, and we once even crammed all four of us in the boat on easy class 1 (Current River in MO). Once you have a kid who knows strokes and has a bit of strength, the boat can hit pretty much any line a kayak can hit:

Depending on what you are looking for I would also not recommend the triple saddle. I have my ME setted up with my saddle just right behind the middle twart and the other saddle in front is removable. This allows for a second setup, without the front saddle, where you can put a huge load of gears and go for multiple days trip. These triple saddle takes so much space in the middle of the boat it's hard to put your stuff in when you're alone. Multi-days trips is also another aspect that kayakers can't quite see the same way we do...

TommyC1 wrote:In order of my preference.
Dagger/ Mad River Caption or MR ME or Mohawk Probe 14 or a Dagger Caper for solo/ tandem whitewater.

Tommy, the Caper last? I *loved* that boat!

Adam, how is your AC/DC outfitted. I put knee pads in mine thinking that would be enough, but after a couple of outtings we're thinking we want thigh straps.

Mohawk’s triple saddle is the simplest, but it depends on the boat being symmetrical since the bow and stern swap when changing. The Mohawk triple places the paddlers closer which gives better performance and reduces the effect of paddler weight on trim.

The Mohawk Probe is the only symmetrical tandem commonly seen for 14’ and under lengths. Even a 14’ length is unreasonable for solo in tight rapids by today’s standards.

Of the boats I’ve paddled tandem, the 13’ Esquif Blast would be the most fun solo, but I doubt it has room for a triple. Removable and adjustable saddles seem ideal for making changes, but are complicated. They might work for switching a Blast though.

In regards to overnight gear capacity, I did a five night class III solo in a Probe 14’ with a triple and had no issues with performance or space.

The Mohawk Probe 14 makes the best compromise for solo or tandem whitewater.

((not exactly a which boat reply))

With kids that young of age (your's 3/5 year old(s) ). We took to placing them side by side in the bow. One would do righty moves and the other lefty. A little communication about what to do before hand, and we could make most any move. Just like a grown up tandem team. Maybe even better because we talked (at least on the ClassII-III we were on). And then we would swap sides every now and then. They simply knelt down behind the front seat.

The Probe 14 is a good choice. I have one with a triple saddle, but the center seat is not very useful and I'd just set it up tandem if I had to do it again. It can be paddled well from the stern position and I have used it to take my wife and kids on section 3 and 4 trips where they walk the big ones like Bull Sluice or the 5 falls and I run them solo.
The Caption is also a good boat and probably the Vertige X as well. An Explorer or Legend would handle the class 2 stuff fine but are hard to manuever in class 3 and up. (I had an Explorer and ran section 3 in it)
The poly boats like the Discovery series don't handle as well as the above mentioned royalex boats.