C-Forum

I'm helping a friend buy a used canoe. She's a newbie, but has done well in a borrowed Ocoee on class II. She wants something challenging that she'll grow into. I saw a couple of Outrages for sale on BT. What's the general opinion on them? Is this boat comparable to an Ocoee or a Viper 12? I'd love to find her a Viper 11 or Ocoee, but they're so hard to find. Any ideas on something used that performs well and is usually available for sale?

You can't really say that the Outrage does anything wrong - Phillip Prince has run the Green Narrows in his multiple times, and other than it being Royalex and not PE, he seems to think it's a fantastic boat. That being said, the Outrage is 1 foot longer than the Ocoee and has rounded chines, where the Ocoee and Vipers have more of a hard chine.

I own and paddle both the Ocoee and the Outrage. I paddle mostly class two and three with an occasional four thrown in there. I like the Ocoee but I love the Outrage. If she can paddle an Ocoee in class two she will do fine in an Outrage and the only thing that will be a lot different will be that the Outrage doesn't have as much initial stability. The Ocoee rolls easier but a newbie probably doesn't care about that.

Elgotto, thanks for the info. My concern was more that the Outrage wouldn't perform as well as the Ocoee, but it sounds like it does pretty well. She wants to be sure she gets something that has a bit of an edge and won't hold her back as she progresses. Does the Outrage fit that description?

Philip Prince here-the Outrage is a very good all around boat. Todhunter hit on the main points, mainly its lack of edges. It lacks edges, and, as far as I can tell, lacks the squirreliness that edgy boats can have to newer paddlers. I have been told it is "forgiving," which I suppose relates to its lack of hard edges to trip over. It is pretty fast, pretty stable, and pretty dry, so it is indeed a good all-around boat. I will tell you that it is not intended for the Green Narrows or that type of run-I just like it, and it is the boat I have, so I run the Green with it. That said, it is sufficiently predictable and maneuverable to make that run possible.

One thing I have noticed is that saddle position is pretty important in the Outrage (and likely all boats, but I don't have first-hand knowledge of others). In my old Outrage, my hip bones were positioned about 6" behind the center line of the boat when kneeling in paddling position. This produced good dryness and pivoting for directing the bow in creek moves. For a newer paddler, this position should enhance dryness and the ability to point the boat downstream or into waves. In my new boat, my hip bones are only 2 or 3" behind the center line. There is still plenty of bow out of the water, but the boat is almost too fast, and it is difficult to peel out and throw the bow around like I want too. This has led to problems on technical moves, and I am in the process of changing it.

All in all, it is a good boat for learning. It does what you tell it to do. Even more noteworthy is that Jim Michaud favors it-this means it is the real thing.

I think it's fair to say that the Outrage is a high-performance boat, but with a different design philosophy than the Viper/Ocoee series.

I also forgot to mention how awesome this boat looks with wood trim.

I love my Outrage. Accelerates quick, very fast and still responsive enough even without the hard edges. The Ocoee is a more advanced and more responsive boat, but there isn't much wrong with the Outrage.

I have go disagree with the post above that states:

"only thing that will be a lot different will be that the Outrage doesn't have as much initial stability. The Ocoee rolls easier but a newbie probably doesn't care about that."

I have never heard the Ocoee described as easy to roll. The hard chine tends to dig in like a keel, requiring almost two hip-snaps to right the boat. Because the Outrage has such as rounded displacement hull, it rolls extremely smoothly and easily — I would say much easier than an Ocoee.

I have not been in an Ocoee in awhile but I would also disagree that it is more stable than an Outrage. An Outrage is truly a great all around river-runner. creeker and big water boat. It does all things well.

Please advise your friend to buy and older "made in Vermont" Outrage with the large insignia rather than the newer ones. I made the mistake of buying a new one and found that Confluence refused to honor the "lifetime" warranty when it cracked in the 15th paddling trip.

All that being said, the Ocoee is a great boat and if she is smaller and a fast learner she may want a foot less boat and something with hard edges.

I've been paddling an Outrage, Mine say Ol Age, since the mid to late 90's. I tried the Ocoee before the Outrage and and went with the Outrage for several reasons. The Ocoee was to twitchy ie to susceptable to cross currents/diagonal waves the Ocoee spins quicker but to me this wasn't always a god thing. Wear, the lack of chines allow the outrage to last much longer before needing patches. Attainments, the outrage seams to do this better. The outrage is slightly faster. Rocker placement, on the outrage rocker doesn't start till about 3' from the ends, the Ocoee starts much nearer to center, this allows the outrage to land drops, ledges or failed boofs without causing the stern to slam down as often as the the ocoee does.
This is all my opinion backed up by my experience. I think your friend would be well served in either but I went with the Outrage.
Bill

I have been boating for many years but only started to paddle OC1 late last fall. So this is a different perspective for what it is worth. The Outrage is an excellent choice for most runs with the exception of steep creeking. It is very fast, holds a line very well going through squirrely water, an is reasonably dry. I find that it catches eddies in a very crisp manner, an jet ferries very predictably. Also, the royalex holds up reasonably well to the occasional rock hit. Finally, it is the easiest OC1 to roll that I have paddled thus far.

While the Outrage doesn't have edges, the durability of the rounder hull is a consideration - a have a beat up old Outrage and recently acquired an Ocoee in great condition. I'll bet the beat, ol' Outrage will still last longer than the chines of the newer Ocoee.

They're both proven great boats, no way to say which somebody will prefer. Get both.

Pat.

My first open boat was a blue Outrage with wood gunwales I bought new in 1993. Loved that boat. Wish I still had it.

I'd love to find her an Ocoee, but they're so sought after, it's hard to get a used one. I've seen a couple of Outrages for sale so I think I steer her in that direction. Maybe she can find an Ocoee to add to her fleet later. Much obliged.

The thing that strikes me about the Outrage, more than the fact that it has a rounded hull contour rather than a sharp chine, is the fact that it is up to several inches narrower than most other whitewater boats of similar length.

That's good for a shorter paddler, or one with shorter arms, as it makes cross strokes easier and it gives the hull speed. But I have heard some larger paddlers complain that the Outrage lacked initial stability and felt "too twitchy" for them, at least at first.