C-Forum

I have been paddling an option since ALF but and love it. Recently, I was able paddle my old zoom on the pigeon. During that time, I noticed something, I have gotten a bit lazy in my new boat. This makes me ask the question, Is there such thing as a boat being too forgiving for the paddler? Don't get me wrong, I am all for the development of newer and better boat designs. However, should we be developing boats that are so stable and forgiving that they could essentially compensate for a paddler's lack of skill? Just something to think about.

I couldnt agree more - Certain boats are for sure better in terms of upward progression than others.

Some do not care about progressing at a certain point - and stability equates to fun on the water for them.

But I think it key that we keep an eye our for our upcoming paddlers and habits they develop due to certain designs.

You say the Option has made you lazy, and I say, why have you let that happen? Have you tried to increase the difficulty of the moves you are trying to make? I think that it is on us to push whatever boat we have.

I think this sounds critical. please don't take it as such, more just philosophical.

Thanks,
Shep

I also think its key to remember the purpose for some of these newer designs - creeking - and in creeking, stability is first and foremost what you are looking for - in my opinion.

Boats like the prelude, Zoom and Maxim - which rely on paddler balance and paddle placement for stability - require the paddler to operate the boat with more skill.

With that being said - when the 'it' hits the fan - you want the stability of a good creek boat.

I think its important that progressive paddlers work toward multiple boats for different purposes - all aimed at their progressive goals as a paddler.... ie creek boat helps paddler get experience on stuff that they may otherwise get destroyed on in a less stable boat....and having a less stable boat - allows for the paddler to gain skill on the easier stuff, where they might otherwise be bored and sloppy.

FullGnarlzOC wrote:I also think its key to remember the purpose for some of these newer designs - creeking - and in creeking, stability is first and foremost what you are looking for - in my opinion.
[etc etc]
a creek boat helps paddler get experience on stuff that they may otherwise get destroyed on in a less stable boat....and having a less stable boat - allows for the paddler to gain skill on the easier stuff, where they might otherwise be bored and sloppy.

That basically hits it on the head.

One thing I think it is important to say is that a more forgiving boat does NOT make you a better boater. A class III boater should not go out and buy boat X and decide after floating down their hometown run that they are ready to take on the nearest class V steeps. No matter what you paddle, you must still have the experience in that environment.

woozymoose wrote:I have been paddling an option since ALF but and love it. Recently, I was able paddle my old zoom on the pigeon. During that time, I noticed something, I have gotten a bit lazy in my new boat. This makes me ask the question, Is there such thing as a boat being too forgiving for the paddler? Don't get me wrong, I am all for the development of newer and better boat designs. However, should we be developing boats that are so stable and forgiving that they could essentially compensate for a paddler's lack of skill? Just something to think about.

You should be able then to actually paddle your newer and more stable boat more aggressively then... shouldn't you?

some dude on the interwebs once wrote:Great overall stability translates into paddlers being able to focus on paddling forward or to being able to concentrate on moving the boat where they want to go rather than bracing or correcting the boat just to keep it upright. When surfing a wave, playing in a hole, riding down a slide or landing from a vertical drop there is nothing better than knowing you aren't going to be concerning yourself with keeping the boat upright and instead you are able to focus on the moves you are going to make next.

I like fast and twitchy boats that require you to actually paddle them... but not when I might be concerned about getting my (expletive) kicked or I just want to have a fun and relaxing day in the river... which is most days.

Allow me to follow that up with... manufacturers typically attempt to produce boats that most people can and will want to paddle... anywhere.

One of my three production boats is sort've stock... the other two are far more let's call it 'lively'.

Just because a boat is super stable doesn't mean a no-skill paddler can run the Green. Creekboats might not be as lively as a river runner or playboat, but they still require some skill in the driver seat.

Just a comment after noticing a lot of, "well its just the boat" lately, when the paddler should be getting more of the credit/blame

Is there such thing as a boat being too forgiving for the paddler?

I think the real question is what do you want to get out of running the river or creek. If you are just along for the ride and the scenery then a forgiving boat is not a bad way to go. But, a lot of boats are forgiving depending on river speed and obstructions. What the question becomes though is if and when you come to a challenge and you need to move that boat from one side of the river to the other in a very short distance to avoid that sieve in front of you can you make your boat do it? I paddled the Option at a play hole on the Dead for 15 minutes and thought that it handled well and could attain upstream and ferry across the current well. It is slower and you have to plan a little bit differently than in the Atom I paddle most of the time, but I believe I could adjust and paddle in a similar fashion eddy to eddy.

However, should we be developing boats that are so stable and forgiving that they could essentially compensate for a paddler's lack of skill?

Sounds like a reference to kayak development. Which is what made kayaking more appealing than canoeing for the masses for the past two decades. I like the idea of the table turning and it being easier for folks to get into the single blade end of the sport. The remaining canoe manufacturers may stay in business and offer us the same new boat development cycle that kayakers enjoy. It may even influence some to manufacture a C1 for the masses that hasn't been available for ten years since the demise of the Dagger Atom.

So talking about boats and skill how many will get a new boat that handles a bit different than they are comfortable with and stick it out for a year to learn to handle the difference?
When I started WW 16 years ago I was in a 16' canoe with inner tube floatation. I could catch big eddies and keep from pinning on the rocks. Within a couple years I bought an XL13 and then I started to learn how to catch smaller eddies, surf, and side surf. It was a great comfortable boat that I see still paddled down the likes of the UY. After two years in that boat I needed a new challenge and I bought a Gyramax C1. It took me a year to learn to roll it and as soon as I had a roll I decided the boat just was not as quick to turn as I would like so I listened to a friends evaluation of the Atom " it turns on a dime " and I knew that was what I wanted, and bought. It performed as advertised but I took quite a few beatings along the way due to the low volume stern. It took me two years to fully learn the boat and anticipate the conditions that will get me in trouble. I probably only paddle 24 days a year so someone with more time to paddle could realistic know the boat in 6 months. During the same time period I bought the Atom I also bought a C1 Viper. This boat I can honestly say I am still learning to paddle after 10 years. It is a fast boat that is so much fun to paddle and run rivers in. But, if you let the current over take you it will punish you. It is a 12' wafer with spoons at both ends. You can drive through wave trains as long as you are faster. Stalling in a foam pile below a drop can be agonizing as the boat will sink into it and then you are carrying water while trying to build momentum. The reward for these difficulties is the enders and pirouettes that can be achieved at the right features.
When I decided to C1 it was because I wanted to become a better open boater but I have yet to finish learning to be a decked boater and there is always something that I can practice and get better at. I will eventually return to an open boat since I will lose the flexibility I have now and an open boat will feel so good.
So I think it depends on the objective of the boater as to whether the boat will be a factor in developing a higher set of skills. If comfort is the objective you might be surprised to learn that it requires effort to avoid fate.

creek boat for the steeps, playboat for the easy stuff.

i've been boating a forplay c1 on the local cl3 stuff, and when i get into my option for something more challenging, it's really confidence inspiring and i can be as aggressive as i need to be.

Kelly-Rand wrote:So talking about boats and skill how many will get a new boat that handles a bit different than they are comfortable with and stick it out for a year to learn to handle the difference?
... I probably only paddle 24 days a year so someone with more time to paddle could realistic know the boat in 6 months. During the same time period I bought the Atom I also bought a C1 Viper. This boat I can honestly say I am still learning to paddle after 10 years....

Maybe someone with more talent than I can maintain skills while paddling that often, but it ain't me. I paddle open canoe most of the warm months (3-5 days a week) but when I get in my slalom C1 (probably easier than the Atom), it takes me a couple of outings to get comfortable again - and I've been paddling C1 for 30 years, 10 of which where C1 was my 95% paddling boat.