C-Forum

New to whitewater canoeing and hoping to get some advise. I'm a 5"11, 165 pound dude. I've dug through allot of the old threads on here, but I figured it wouldn't hurt to start another thread in case something has changed. I don't want to buy a boat that I'm going to out grow after a year, or two. I'm leaning towards the mad river outrage. Sounds like a forgiving boat for a beginner, but still a boat that offers plenty for a more skilled boater, in case I ever become one. Any other boats I should be looking into? Having a list would be nice. It would give me more of chance of finding one used. Thanks!

I was also wondering if there are any major differences between the current outrage and the ones that were made in the past? The font looks better on the old ones. Also, is there just as much of a danger with cold cracks on the ones with wooden gunnels, as there is with other royalex canoes? The gunnels look a bit different on these boats.

Oh man, there are a TON of boats out there that would do you right. The Outrage is a great boat, was my first open boat in the early 90's and I loved it then. There is a diff between the older and newer boats, something about how the ends are shaped. I'm sure someone with more knowledge will jump in here and tell you exactly whats up with that. Try looking at the Wenonah Recon. Its a new boat that Wenonah just came out with that is similar to the Outrage. Also look at some of the Esquif boats in the 10-11' range. Lots out there to get you started. The key is going to be getting into as many as possible and trying to find one that clicks with you. Sometimes the eye and the body don't agree on what boat will work for you. Come to ALF (search on here and you'll find a ton of info on that gathering) and you'll be able to try just about any canoe available in March.

Ref cold cracks, yeah its sometimes an issue with royalex and wood gunwales. Some people remove the wood and drill wider holes then reinstall the gunwales, or they back them out to ease the pressure when storing them in the winter.

And as a side note, ref outgrowing the Outrage/Recon type boat... some prefer that boat over others. Its just your personal taste. Heck there's a guy on here (Phil) that runs his Outrage down the Green River Narrows. That says something right there.

Mohawk Probe 11/12s would also be something to look at, for a forgiving beginner boat.

With all that said, don't be afraid to jump into one of the newfangled plastic creekers to see what you think. A L'Edge or an Option (or even the tiny Ion) might 'click' with you. Kinda like kayaks where some beginners immediately feel more comfortable in a playboat. You never know till you paddle them.

Post where you are living and possibly people around you will pop their heads up and offer to help you get into open boating.

Wood trimmed ones used to be wider at ends, by design. This made them some dryer and probably had a little more rocker. MR stopped doing this a few years ago and now shape is same for vinyl and wood. also as with all ABS boats the ABS formula was changed 10 or so years ago and the new is not as tough as it had been.
Bill

The Outrage is a good canoe for sure, but not all beginners find it forgiving. It is a bit narrower than many boats of its length, which makes it quick to accelerate, but makes it feel a bit less stable, at least to some.

When one considers used boats as well as new, there are so many designs that it is hard to make a useful suggestion. One major difference in OC-1s is the hull cross-sectional configuration. Some boats (like the Outrage) have a rounded shallow arch cross section with no real sharp chine or "edge". Others, like the Dagger/Bell Ocoee, or the Mohawk Vipers have a fairly sharp, well-defined chine and there is a distinct difference in how they paddle. Other boats have a less sharp chine, such as the Mohawk Probes or the Esquif Zephyr.

Until you have paddled a bit you are probably not going to know what you like. Depending on where you are located, there may or may not be other whitewater open boaters in your vicinity. You might look into joining a club. If you can paddle with other whitewater canoeists you might be able to try out other boats.

Personally, I would look around at the used market in the general area you are located in and see what is available. If you are starting out in whitewater open boating, the boat choice is probably not the biggest issue right away. If you can get out on the water in something suitable that is in reasonable shape, you can start getting a feel for which boat characteristics you prefer and which you dislike without investing too much money. Many of the other items you will need (helmet, PFD, paddles, flotation bags, clothing) can be used with any boat. Even outfitting such as pedestals, straps, knee pads, and anchors can be removed from one boat and reinstalled in another. I have occasionally bought used OC-1s primarily for the outfitting they contained.

You gotta try 'em out. The MR Outrage, Dagger/Bell Ocoee, and Mohawk Viper 11 are all great starter boats, but are different enough that you should try each before buying. I have a Viper 11 that I like a great deal, it's pretty stable, fast, tracks well, etc. But you need to jump in boats and try before you buy.

chances are you'll find one of the many great boats as your first, then after a bit you'll want something else. after you sell your first you'll wish you held on to it cause it'll be one of your favorite boats.

Thanks for all the responses! Really glad I ran into this website. I live a block away from Minneapolis, MN. This is a new addiction for me. Bought my first canoe this summer and have already bought 2 more and sold the first one. I think my wife might murder me if I mention the word canoe one more time. This is an expensive habit!! I quit smoking cigs this summer though, so my boat debt just gives me some added incentive to not start up again$$ I'll have to look into this ALF gathering. It would be nice to try some boats out first. Would love to try some of esquif's solos. I recently bought an esquif canyon that I can't wait to take out for few days, or more.

Why don't you check these guys out?

http://www.rapidsriders.org/index.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I haven't belonged to this club (I did live in Minneapolis for 10 years) but judging from their forum they seem to have a pretty active club.
A lot of the whitewater runs in Minnesota are crazy, steep seasonal creeks coming off of the Iron Mountain range on the north shore (very cold water) but there are some rivers that are less seasonal such as the Kettle and the St Louis. There are also some decent whitewater runs in adjacent Wisconsin (Wolf, Peshtigo, and others).

When you are starting out, a club is a good way to garner information about boats, rivers, and technique. A lot of boats get sold or swapped by word of mouth. A club also simplifies shuttle logistics, carpooling, and offers a safety net of sorts. This particular club has winter pool sessions and a spring introductory whitewater course.

I'll second the club thing, such as http://www.rapidsriders.org/index.php

Which car should I buy? Just starting out and wondering the group consensus. Whether I should get that so hot red Corvette over on Main, or maybe that new 4x4 F150 Super-cab (it looks good), or perhaps there's this 84' Westy in so-so condition. I'm really wanting to drive... bad. Anyone know something about vans?

As previously said >>> try try try - before you >>> buy buy buy


We don't know what you need, we don't know where you intent to go, we don't know your reaction time, or balance, or athleticism. Just guessing but after two boats, it may be time to find a group or popular river and start trying. Because even among the best ten boaters here, you may legitimately get 4-5 good answers. And even then - it's possible that none of those might be what you want (or really need). Otherwise you might become a really good supplier for slightly used boats.

Just be sure to check out flatter bottoms, compared to more rounded, and rocker-ed to not so rockered, and so on... The more different the better, and then start narrowing and whittling down. Enjoy the journey because what you like today, well it could very well change. Sorry to be so matter of fact, but we could start a which boat argument here (real quick), if it hadn't already happened so often and so fast. Good to see all the good civility and thoughtful answers.

Oh - by the way stay away from that Mosquif Outrageous Triple-X - it really suxx's. (( GOOD LUCK - Really))

The "try before you buy" advice sounds great but isn't always practical for nubes.
There aren't that many open boaters around depending on where you live. Also, what do you do if you don't have a boat to bring to the river to trade with someone? Stand there with your thumb out and hope someone lets you paddle there boat? Good luck. Paddlers are super nice but that's asking a bit much.

I say buy whatever you can find to get your butt on the river, then start shopping for a boat.

I have seen the rapids riders site. The spring class and pool sessions sound like a good way to meet some others and to learn some technique. I'm curious to find out if it's all people with kayaks though. I feel you philcanoe. I've read through allot of those old threads and I was hesitant to start another, but I figured why not. I love shopping for boats and learning about different designs. Yea, maybe I'll end up buying the wrong boat, but I figure if I buy it used and don't get ripped off that I can always sell it to buy something else. I also agree with ian123. The spring class is not an option without having your own boat and I would feel like a jackass showing up to a pool session without one. It would be nice to try some first though..

lung wrote: Yea, maybe I'll end up buying the wrong boat ..

Not sure that's possible

Any whitewater boat in moderate length, moderate performance, plastic, and economical should be fine for your first boat. You may only boat occasionally and never grow out of it. If you boat regularly the probability is that you'll find something else that more suits your style. One's paddling style or preference usually doesn't precede one's first boat... I'm almost certain that you're required to grow out of your first.

I'm also with those suggesting the club and recommend going to their pool session on Nov 27th... with or without a boat.