A serious question...

Decked Canoes, Open Canoes, as long as they're canoes!

Moderators: adamin, kenneth, sbroam, TheKrikkitWars, Mike W., Sir Adam, KNeal, PAC

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TheKrikkitWars
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A serious question...

Post by TheKrikkitWars » Wed May 02, 2012 9:39 am

For all the paddlers who come from a kayaking background...

What stops you going back?


I ask this as I picked up a Jefe Grande cheap the other day and due to time pressures ended up borrowing my mate's splits and paddling it as a K1 to lead some newbies down one of our local runs; ever since I've had my buddies trying to gently cajole me back into a kayak...

I have to admit to being kind of tempted, as the comparative lack of thought required made everything feel easier and more relaxed and "easy and relaxed" are two pretty seductive descriptors; but I got out with severe lower back pain, aching ankles and generally feeling pretty beat up... which to me is still a win for canoing. That though, isn't the overiding factor; When I started canoeing seriously I sold all my kayaks because I wanted to develop my skills and knew that wouldn't happen if I was switching out for the hard stuff... Going back on that now, or at any point before I've reached the zenith of my canoeing abilities seems like a cop-out that essentially puts 4 years of *blood, sweat and weldwood in the red can* to waste.


For all the paddlers who have a problem with kayakers or kayaking...

You've got the remainder of the forum to use: *GO NUTS!*
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CBoats Moderator - Not necessarily representing the CBoats staff though...(I'll use words like "moderator", "We" and "CBoats" to make it clear when I am)

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Re: A serious question...

Post by markzak » Wed May 02, 2012 11:21 am

I'll hop in kayaks from time to time, usually to give a kayaker a chance in my canoe. It sucks. My legs fall asleep within 15 minutes because i think i don't have enough natural paddling on my butt and I get splashed in the face with water all day.

Yes, kayaking is fun and surfing holes and waves in a kayak is unique in the variety of tricks you can throw. I paddled kayak for around 6 years before switching to the C.

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Re: A serious question...

Post by Bob Wiggins » Wed May 02, 2012 11:27 am

I forgot how to roll a kayak when I got in one past weekend... Swam at nanty falls the first time in 6 years.... In front of god knows how many cameras.

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Re: A serious question...

Post by cadster » Wed May 02, 2012 1:44 pm

I think you’ve answered your question. The key is how dedicated you are to perfecting your paddling. If you want to commit the time to C-1ing you’ll stick with it. If not, you can run rapids and play with about a third less effort in a kayak.

I find practice is needed much more in a C-1 than an open boat. You lose your comfort with a single blade in a decked boat fairly quickly if you don’t paddle that way often. Being quick and flexible is not in as much demand with more width and higher waterline of an open canoe.

Comfort issues come down to perfecting your outfitting in all kinds of whitewater boats. I do find I naturally have better posture kneeling versus sitting. Slouching in a kayak does diminish paddling effectiveness.

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Re: A serious question...

Post by TNbound » Wed May 02, 2012 2:36 pm

TheKrikkitWars wrote:For all the paddlers who come from a kayaking background...

What stops you going back?

Basically, I don't have a kayak or kayak paddle anymore.

As far as kayaks go, I've only paddled playboats (why I got into OC1. Those things are slow!!) but a creek boat is appealing. I'm not saying I would go to kayaking full time, but it would be a nice option to switch it up or for harder creeks.

C1 creeking has the same appeal of making things easier than OC1, but the outfitting (at least the stuff I have seen) is by far too scary in a creek environment.
-Anthony

"I'm gonna run this one river left I think.... So far river left, that I'm gonna be on the bank. With my boat on my shoulder."

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Re: A serious question...

Post by ESP » Wed May 02, 2012 3:51 pm

I only have the opportunity to paddle so many days a year and unfortunately it isn't enough time to maintain proficiency in multiple venues simultaneously.

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Re: A serious question...

Post by Will » Wed May 02, 2012 4:13 pm

I both Kayak and Canoe. I prefer canoe, but to me it's about having fun on the water and not joining some allegiance or sterio type about you have to be hard core into one or the other. Why not do both? I do the majority of my paddling in a canoe as I do prefer it over a kayak for comfort (sitting) and freedom of movement, but can't get used to kneeling. Maybe you more experianced paddlers can help me. I go to a white water kayak (creeker) over a canoe for comfort. I have bad knees and the kneeling positition kills me on paddles of any distance. I am new to this so is there a set up or saddle height that might help me? My knees / legs hurt for over a day after a 5-6 mile paddle which keeps me from doing more of it. I really would love to hear what setup people are using as I read this and they comment their canoes are more comforatable. I don't find this to be the case with bad knees and is the why I still switch to kayak from time to time.

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Re: A serious question...

Post by ezwater » Wed May 02, 2012 7:57 pm

I'm also having knee discomfort even high kneeling in OC-1. I reached intermediate level in kayaks back in the 90s, and had a pretty good roll. But I preferred c-1.

If I could solve the problems of ischemia and risk of clotting associated with a low kneel, I would return to c-1.

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Re: A serious question...

Post by leclercraven » Wed May 02, 2012 8:11 pm

Will wrote:I both Kayak and Canoe. I prefer canoe, but to me it's about having fun on the water and not joining some allegiance or sterio type about you have to be hard core into one or the other. Why not do both? I do the majority of my paddling in a canoe as I do prefer it over a kayak for comfort (sitting) and freedom of movement, but can't get used to kneeling. Maybe you more experianced paddlers can help me. I go to a white water kayak (creeker) over a canoe for comfort. I have bad knees and the kneeling positition kills me on paddles of any distance. I am new to this so is there a set up or saddle height that might help me? My knees / legs hurt for over a day after a 5-6 mile paddle which keeps me from doing more of it. I really would love to hear what setup people are using as I read this and they comment their canoes are more comforatable. I don't find this to be the case with bad knees and is the why I still switch to kayak from time to time.
How hi is your saddle? Saddle height makes a big difference.

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Re: A serious question...

Post by Sir Adam » Wed May 02, 2012 9:04 pm

Outfitting is part of the problem with discomfort - boat design is another.

Old boats (think Hahn and other "high volume" designs) let you spread your knees and are quite comfortable when properly outfitted. In the 80's most designs force us all to bring our knees in and are much less comfortable, especially for those of us who are less than flexible.... Thankfully some of the newer designs are using bigger cockpits and allow knee spread - Wheelboy is one, Sith is VERY comfortable. Until you experience the difference you won't really "get" it. But once you do you may buy one....

Another option IMhO is something like a Viper C1 (based on the cudamax- wide), and have PS Composites (who has the mold) put in the larger (atom or cascade sized) cockpit rim (vs. standard slalom size). The Viper is wide enough you can get your knees out a bit and have it be rather comfortable - though not as much as a Shaggy Sith for instance. And if you do contact PS Composites, it's best to call rather than e-mail.
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Re: A serious question...

Post by Silent Bob » Thu May 03, 2012 12:08 am

I've bounced around from oc1 to c1 to k1 back to oc1 to k1 and to c1. (with a little raft guiding in there too :P ) Having started in a canoe, a single blade is what always has felt most natural. Although the hardest water I ever paddled was in a k1.

The last time I paddled the k1, I found myself flailing around a bit, not quite knowing what to do with the extra blade. So I think I'm sticking with the single blade for now.


-Bob

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