kneeling thwarts

[acc]

Recently got a Dagger Caption which has kneeling thwarts. I have used a kneeling thwart in another canoe before so very familiar & comfortable with. A friend pointed out an incident involving kneeling thwart where paddler got pinned in canoe. Bottom of boat got compressed, pinning paddler's legs between thwart & bottom of boat.
Anyone have any ideas re a quick release set up in event of such an incident where the thwart could be disconnected on either side of canoe? I would prefer to keep the kneeling thwarts rather than install two saddles, which would increase weight of canoe.
Thanks,
thecloses@yahoo.com

[Mike W.]

I once saw a kayak w/ a wood foot-brace. It was hinged on one side so it could swing towards the cockpit. The other side had a block to keep it from swinging towards the bow. You could do something similar to that but have it swing up & have a pin or latch on the side opposite the hinge.

[ezwater]

That's good advice. People do hinge kneeling thwarts, or otherwise provide for a quick release or breakaway mount.

I'm a saddle devotee, however. With size 15 feet I don't even like my tootsies poked back under a c-1 deck.

You'll surely save by just safety-modifying the kneeling thwarts, rather than sinking money and effort into saddles. But I don't think saddles would add much weight, once you take the kneeling thwarts out. And saddles can provide both flotation and hull support to prevent pinning. Though I don't use "tight" outfitting in my open boats (no toe braces, no thigh straps), a kneeling thwart would not have enough lateral butt support for me. But if you use your Caption the way we use our Synergy (class 2 and an occasional class 3), outfitting won't matter much.

When I bought the first-out-of-the-mold Dagger Zealot c-1 from Adam Clawson, he was using the world's lowest kneeling thwart as a seat. Adam is near as tall as I am, and it was frightening to think what he would have to do to extract his large feet after flipping and failing to roll. But he never failed to roll.

[acc]

Thanks Mike W. & EZWater. Another friend mentioned a pull pin or clevis pin. Not having done much re outfitting a canoe ( my solo boats, a Rival & Prophet all came outfitted & luckily fit me ), my concern is anchoring hinges etc. If you or anyone else runs across pictures of such set-ups as hinging or other form(s) of quick release/break-away, I would greatly appreciate the input. Currently the thwarts set on aluminum straps that hang or are bolted to the gunnels. The top part of Al. is bent 90 degrees to fit under/bolted to gunnels, & the bottom 90 degree bend in opposite direction towards canoe interior allows thwart to rest on top of that bend, also bolted on. I may try removing the bolt that holds either side of thwart & replacing w/a clevis pull pin & cotter pin if there is enough strap to accommodate & I can find a clevis pin that is not so long I would have a loose feeling thwart seat.
Thanks again.

[sbroam]

Keep it simple - put a block of foam between the thwart and hull. Make it big enough to be structural (6" square) - that should still let you move around (if that is what you like about the thwart).

I know a guy who was pinned in his open boat on the Ocoee - he was cut out of his boat. Pretty sure his is the episode that made it into one of the rescue manuals. I haven't used an unsupported kneeling thwart in a whitewater boat since. [I use padestal / saddles more often.]

[acc]

Thanks Broam. That is definitely a simple application. Now just have to find a couple chunks of closed cell foam to wedge in under each thwart.

[John Coraor]

Bob P., who frequents this board has installed hinged seats and hanging thwarts on several of his boats. If you want to go that route you could look him up and contact him - or wait for him to see your post.

John

[acc]

Thank-you John, I will see if he is in the members list & drop him a line. I liked the foam idea but am still considering. Thanks again.

[Paddle Power]

I like the suggested foam under each thwart--simple and effective.

Any breakaway system would have to release under load, which might rule out a pin or similar.

[Bob P]

I too like the idea of the foam supports. Just use the high-density Minicell and have the support area fairly substantial.

[KNeal]

I know a guy who was pinned in his open boat on the Ocoee - he was cut out of his boat. Pretty sure his is the episode that made it into one of the rescue manuals. I haven't used an unsupported kneeling thwart in a whitewater boat since. [I use padestal / saddles more often.]

Scott, was that boater John Norton? I came across that event in Les Bechdel's, "River Rescue" book. It happened back in '82 when there was a bridge pillar in the Ocoee River at hades Hole. There is no mention of a kneeling thwart--just that he was tangled in his thigh strap.

[acc]

Bob P, am disappointed you did not have a pin or hinge alternative. Those that you did in the past, how did they work/hold up in long term?

[sbroam]

I know a guy who was pinned in his open boat on the Ocoee - he was cut out of his boat. Pretty sure his is the episode that made it into one of the rescue manuals. I haven't used an unsupported kneeling thwart in a whitewater boat since. [I use padestal / saddles more often.]

Scott, was that boater John Norton? I came across that event in Les Bechdel's, "River Rescue" book. It happened back in '82 when there was a bridge pillar in the Ocoee River at hades Hole. There is no mention of a kneeling thwart--just that he was tangled in his thigh strap.

No, another guy - pinned somewhere between Grumpy and Broken Nose, Corran Addison got involved, the fire department cut him out.

[Bob P]

Bob P, am disappointed you did not have a pin or hinge alternative. Those that you did in the past, how did they work/hold up in long term?

The only hinged seat that I currently use is in my C1. It's a bucket that needs only a limited amount of motion for safety, so it's basically loosely bolted in, sitting in a cradle that locates it. The design is not appropriate for an open boat. Both my OCs have the same bucket, rigidly mounted. There's more room in those boats: The seat is higher and egress isn't restricted as much as my small-cockpit C1.

It was a long time ago that I used a thwart seat. I think it was removable, but the details escape me.

I still like the foam support idea. Simple to execute. I would also put a gunwale-height thwart as close as possible to the seat to prevent the seat from being "captured" in the event of a broach.

[acc]

Hi Bob,
Thanks for your input. I will look into the foam idea. It definitely sounds like the easier idea. I just have to find a source around here. I was just curious as to how you had mounted the hardware for hinge etc to boat. What foundation was used as a mounting point etc. Thanks again.