C-Forum

Hi everyone, this tip might be common sense to some, but I'll share it anyways. I've always had a pretty decent roll -- I would never miss a roll in a pool. But, when I flipped in a big rapid, it was generally hit or miss to whether I would roll up or swim and I could never figure out why. I paddle a l'edge and have been adjusting the toe blocks, and the other day I finally figured out why... I wasn't tight enough in the boat, notably with my feet pushing against the toe blocks. When I would get in a really turbulent rapid, or especially getting worked in a hole, I would often sort of be sucked out of my boat, making a roll really difficult and generally giving myself a terrible leg cramp when I forced myself back up while only sort of in the boat. I usually paddle with either booties that sort of fold at the toe or barefoot. The other day, I decided I would spend the day working on my roll, and tried out wearing a pair of hard sandals that didn't bend at all in the toe so that I could have maximum leverage pushing against the toe block. Then, I cranked the toe blocks up as far as I could fit in the boat -- it's uncomfortable, but much preferable to swimming a big rapid. As long as I stretched every once in awhile, I wasn't particularly more uncomfortable then normal.
I went out to the New River Gorge -- my home river which I feel super comfortable on and know every rapid and hazard by heart -- and purposefully flipped in almost every rapid. I probably was upside down 12 or 13 times... And they aren't gentle rapids either. I didn't miss one roll the whole day... Didn't even come close to it! That one minor adjustment, making sure that i was truly snug in the boat and had maximum leverage pushing off the toe blocks, changed my roll from hit or miss to seemingly bombproof in big class IV water. So, if you ever have a feeling of getting sucked out of your boat or can't figure out why you sometimes miss a roll for no apparent reason, I recommend trying to 1) get as snug as you can in the boat without major discomfort and 2) experimenting with footwear until you find something that allows you to push off of the toe blocks comfortably.

Thanks for the tip.

I recently made the observation that if I can get set up quickly for a roll it works and if I don't get set up quickly I swim. Based on this I came to the same conclusion that you have, that my problem is getting sucked/falling too far out of the boat. I have added some extra blocks to the side foam behind my bulkhead to tighten my thighs up a bit (idea stolen from Gumpy). When I was in Gumpy's Option with these extra blocks my roll was almost automatic and I am hoping my boat will be the same soon too.

Yep, I've played with bolt-on 45degree toe block extensions and lap belts for the same reason.

When it come right down to it I think I can accomplish the same thing by setting the factory toe blocks as tight as I can stand. I mean c'mon.. you're not peeling out into that gorge section or drop in the pursuit of comfort now are you? And swims, when they do happen, are so much more exciting when your legs are tingling or completely numb...

I hate footrests... So I just use thigh straps and bulkhead; I tend to go years between swims, so I think I can safely say that footrests aren't neccesary.

So long as you're held into the boat firmly and have good connectivity, you'll roll up... How you achieve those two things, is very much up to you

You probably tend to go years without paddling a real rapid either

I'll echo Krikket's comments - it is most important than you can keep yourself held in to the boat well - HOW you do it is up to you. One fellow I used to paddle with (who preferred two blades, but was a far better paddler than most of us will ever be) tended to hold himself in to the boat with his knees - but opposite of most kayakers he gripped the center wall with them (rather than the knee / thigh hooks most use now). Worked great for him, not so much for most other folks. But Dennis was *special* in many ways .

Personally I'm trying to figure out better bulkhead systems for myself as my strap systems I used to like so much I find "give" a bit more than I'd like, or cut off more circulation than I'd like (if tightened down). No doubt being well in to my 30's rather than in my 20's has something to do with this....

I'll share one amusing tale from my first few years C1ing - first trip of the year I was heading down the Kennebec with a friend of mine - pretty much hardly anyone else on the river. I was in one of the first Atom's (no hip grabber). Right at the top of the alleyway there is a nice hole with a curling wave that is river right to the center of the river (takes up the entire right side in other words). I wasn't too worried, just hit the curling wave (center of river). Well, that nice sharp deck flipped me over nice and quick. So, i set up and rolled... and pulled myself right out of the boat. Nice loooong swim down the Alley, finally got to shore in Cathedral Eddy (not exactly the ideal place in retrospect... one strong eddy fence to cross twice (once in the water, once again in my boat).

So I know EXACTLY what you mean by needing to have good contact with the boat to roll

FullGnarlzOC wrote:You probably tend to go years without paddling a real rapid either

'Better to say nothing and be thought a fool, than open your mouth and remove all doubt.'

If you have something to contribute... then please do. If you don't have any thoughts or experiences on the issue at hand, then there's plenty of other places to bother people on the internet.

Personally I'm trying to figure out better bulkhead systems for myself as my strap systems I used to like so much I find "give" a bit more than I'd like, or cut off more circulation than I'd like (if tightened down).

This might be an apples to pancakes comparison, but I sometimes think it's easier to roll my OC1 (with bulkhead) than my Atom (with dinky straps). At least it's easier to stay in the boat and set up. I definitely have to squeeeeeze out with the knees in the Atom. In either boat, I come up with major leg cramp.

I heard a yarn this weekend about a seasoned big water boater taking a beating in a hole, and rolling up afterwards on a Perception saddle with no boat attached.

Hey guys, while I use toe blocks, I'm sure many people use other systems to hold them in. My main point was that whatever someone's using, they should experiment with how tight they are in it. This seems like common sense, but I've boated for years thinking I was really tight in the boat, before finally realizing that my roll was a bit inconsistent because I was getting sucked out of the boat while upside down. Tightening the setup beyond the previous level proved to make all the difference -- I would think that the same theory would apply regardless of what outfitting you have in the boat.

This is kind of a surprising topic. I thought tight outfitting was one of the first things you learn about when you start rolling .

I see where your coming from though... if you can just fall out the outfitting, sometimes that easier than toughing it out and rolling.... especially if you re getting knocked around. I ve starting paddling a C1 a bit and the added work of pulling the skirt and straps/belt is incentive to hang in and roll. Plus, by the time I m actually out of the boat, chances are, I m past whatever was beating the shittt out of me in the first place.

ian123 wrote:This is kind of a surprising topic. I thought tight outfitting was one of the first things you learn about when you start rolling .

I see where your coming from though... if you can just fall out the outfitting, sometimes that easier than toughing it out and rolling.... especially if you re getting knocked around. I ve starting paddling a C1 a bit and the added work of pulling the skirt and straps/belt is incentive to hang in and roll. Plus, by the time I m actually out of the boat, chances are, I m past whatever was beating the shittt out of me in the first place.

I do understand what you are saying but it is sometimes hard to know when the outfitting is tight enough, especially once inverted. My boat has always fit me like a glove and I could stay in when inverted so it seemed fine, I didn't want to be too tight after all. What this does not take into account is the extra forces that area applied as one gets thrashed down the river.

I got to test my new thigh blocks today. The water was really shallow but it was enough to establish that getting out is still easy if I need to wet exit but my connection to the boat is much better when inverted. I'll give a report after this weekend, PAC is scheduled to put me through my paces.