2012 OC slalom nationals video

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pmp
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Re: 2012 OC slalom nationals video

Post by pmp » Wed Oct 31, 2012 2:01 pm

i think if i use the pitch stroke, i'm not aware of it. it is fast and subtle.
On another note, could i encourage everyone to subscribe to my youtube channel so you always get the latest video i have to offer... and more subscribers may make this gig a viable option for me.
thanks
paul
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Glenn MacGrady
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Re: 2012 OC slalom nationals video

Post by Glenn MacGrady » Wed Nov 14, 2012 3:23 am

Bob P wrote: What's a "pitch-stroke"?
You WW guys just have to paddle more FW. After all, many great WW runs end with miles of that flat stuff. See Tugaloo, Lake.

You can correct the off-side yaw of a forward stroke at four places during the stroke: at entry, during the pull, at exit, or during the recovery. These four correction methods have been around for thousands of years and can be blended to suit your preference and the type of wind and water conditions in which you are paddling.

- At paddle entry: Bow draw stroke. An anticipatory correction of the later-to-come off-side yaw.

- During paddle pull: Pitch stroke. An angled (pitched) blade during the pull prevents off-side yaw.

- At paddle exit: J push-away or stern pry stroke. Corrects already in motion off-side yaw. (The least elegant correction method.)

- During paddle recovery: Canadian stroke. An in-water forward loaded slice corrects off-side yaw.

These four basic corrections can be combined. For example, the traveling C stroke combines a bow draw with a stern J. Patrick Moore advocates the traveling pitch stroke as the most efficient correction.

Bill Mason demonstrated it all very clearly 35 years ago.

http://www.onf.ca/film/path_of_the_paddle_solo_basic

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Re: 2012 OC slalom nationals video

Post by jakke » Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:54 am

@ Glenn MacGrady , I think you're underestimating the skills of some whitewater paddlers, even though I do agree that flatwater can be a good part of preparation for whitewater.

But it's not because you don't know the name, that you don't know how to play the game. It's about learning those subtle variations, think about when to choose which variation in comfortable conditions to develop paddling instincts, so you choose the appropriate variation without thinking when you need it.

Names are convenient when coaching, learning or talking on places like here. On the river I don't think: hey, this move would be nice with a pitch, unless I'm training in some form.

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Re: 2012 OC slalom nationals video

Post by Glenn MacGrady » Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:27 pm

Jakke, I don't mean to take this thread off topic, but I think I have a pretty good handle on single blading in the USA. It's dying - along with single blade technique and available hulls. Kayaks and double blading are dominant in all flat and white water venues.

In my experience, many FW canoeists are totally incompetent in WW. Conversely, many WW hotshots have very poor FW canoeing technique, whether we are talking FW correction technique or FW sit 'n switch technique. In addition, it is my further experience that accomplished FW canoeists are more likely to be ambidextrously competent than accomplished WW canoeists. Nolan Whitesell was brilliantly ambidextrous in WW, and it helped him greatly to be able to choose paddling sides for given rapids.

You mentioned an OC slalom racer in the video perhaps using a pitch stroke. Another experienced slalom racer says he never heard of it, and yet a third said he doesn't know if or when he is using one or not.

In order to preserve, and more so resuscitate, single blading, the skills must be analytically broken down for instruction. The "basic" skills, a la the Bill Mason video, should at least have recognizable names and visual cues.

I agree that once one becomes very experienced in boat control, paddling becomes a reactive and instinctive manipulation of pressures on the paddle blade. You don't think of names or even individual strokes as you paddle. But you do need to know names and individual strokes to talk about it.

My sport is single blading on all water venues, and I have the highest regard for accomplished WW single blade practitioners, especially those still involved in open hull slalom racing. I also have high regard for the accomplished open hull single bladers of past -- the long past -- who invented and propagated all the basics.

I'm done, and I'd like to thank the OP for linking that video, nicely produced by Bill Mason's son.

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Re: 2012 OC slalom nationals video

Post by ezwater » Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:21 pm

Jakke, they are usually not doing *anything* about correction with their short forward strokes. No J, no rudder, no pitch. What happens is that during the power, the bow of the boat shoves water away from the non-paddling side. During recovery, the water shoves back. One can see the bow coming back toward the paddle side during recovery, if one just holds the paddle in the air after extracting it.

I couldn't get down that course in one piece, but I go a whole day of forward strokes with "correction" on only about ten percent of my strokes.

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Re: 2012 OC slalom nationals video

Post by Shep » Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:08 am

I find it ironic that Glenn suggested, in a discussion involving Paul Mason, that people review Bill Mason's canoeing texts. I also think that is hubris to assume that someone who doesn't know the name of a (relatively esoteric) stroke doesn't know how to paddle. I think most racers can probably paddle flat water just fine. If you can't go straight in a boat meant to turn, you'll never make gates. Further more, I think as we get more comfortable around a paddle, we tend to reinvent the things that people haven't specifically taught us. After I got my Taureau, waddya know, I invented the "traveling C stroke"... Just like tens of thousands of canoeists before me, even though I decided to call it a "C-stroke", instead of a "travelling C-stroke". And as we get more comfortable than that, we stop thinking and analyzing. Learning Theory calls this "Unconscious Competence". I would guess that Paul's comment falls into this category.

Keep in mind that the video is from a world-class, medal-winning C1 slalom racer. Jordi canoes for a living. By now he is probably the definition of unconscious competence.

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Re: 2012 OC slalom nationals video

Post by Northwoodsbc » Thu Nov 15, 2012 4:19 am

HaHaHa! I don't think Glenn realized that the original poster, PMP, is Paul Mason. The guy that "doesn't know if or when he is using one or not".

Thanks for all the great videos Paul.

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Re: 2012 OC slalom nationals video

Post by jakke » Thu Nov 15, 2012 7:33 am

@ ezwater, interesting theory you post here. Next time I'm on the like, I'll give it a try!

Even though I see lots of subtle corrections, small pitches, slicing, slight changes in paddle angle. I recon all driven by instincts, not conscious, except maybe for the switching sides. It's not that I'm that much of a hotshot paddler, but I like to analyze and to learn from others :).

Anyhow, nothing but respect, for all who made it in their boats down to the finish line. I think I would have a real hard time, making all the gates and the finish line.

@shep, I think you're right about slalom paddlers and their flatwater skills. Among the whitewater non-c1-slalomcompetition-racing paddlers, if I can name it this way, there are enough paddlers who could profit in their whitewater paddling by doing some more flatwater technique drills. Slalom racers do that anyhow. So depending on the group of paddlers you're talking about, I think Glen has a point.

It is thanks to people like Bill and Paul Mason, Kent Ford, Tom Foster, ... , who publish books and dvd's, that some structure and naming convention builds up. But it is impossible to list, name and define an application field for every subtle variation.

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Re: 2012 OC slalom nationals video

Post by ezwater » Thu Nov 15, 2012 11:14 pm

Jakke, when you try it, there are a few things to do to make it likely to work.

First, your canoe should be trimmed at or very near level, not bow up.

And you should be kneeling in the center of the boat, where your reach goes forward parallel to the bow. Sitting farther back and using weight to trim the boat probably won't work.

You need a good forward reach, and your catch should be firm, though it need not be exaggerated or splashy.

Your paddle stroke should be fairly short. There won't be time for a lot of torso twist, though the torso does still contribute much of the energy. The blade should stay perpendicular to the axis of the canoe, unless on a particular stroke you add a bit of "c" at the catch or "j" at the end to correct a momentary deviation. When your blade passes the hip, you slice it straight out to the side without dragging it.

Your impression should be of pulling the boat forward by its bow. The stroke rate may be higher, though it need not be. If you need to accelerate, you should do so by increasing pressure at the catch, and by increasing the stroke rate, NOT by pulling through farther by twisting the torso or horsing your upper body backwards.

Most of the time, I can see the boat veering back toward the paddle side during recovery. If it starts to veer the other way, a short, sharp J correction, or less often, a cross bow stroke, will correct it.

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Re: 2012 OC slalom nationals video

Post by jakke » Fri Nov 16, 2012 8:58 am

@ezwater, what's the hull doing, because what you describe is very similar to carving. You initiate the stern to break out slightly with an overdone stern correction, you lean the boat into the turn and keep on paddling forward against an assymetrical bow wave without any need for stern corrections. Subtle variations in blade angle and recovery help fine-tune and controle the radius of the turn.

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Re: 2012 OC slalom nationals video

Post by sbroam » Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:13 pm

Shep wrote:... Just like tens of thousands of canoeists before me, even though I decided to call it a "C-stroke", instead of a "travelling C-stroke". ...
LOL, like when as a teenager working as a dishwasher in a restaurant I "discovered" the "law of diminishing returns", though I called it the "principle of I get better faster at the beginning".

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Re: 2012 OC slalom nationals video

Post by ezwater » Fri Nov 16, 2012 9:56 pm

It isn't carving. At the catch, and during the relatively short power application, the bow is forced to the right, and a mound of water rises along the bow. During recovery, the same mound of water pushes the bow back toward the paddling side. It is kind of spooky, the first time you notice the bow coming back during the recovery phase.

I normally paddle with the hull dead level, but I've found that I can heel toward the paddle side, and the no correction stroke still works. The bow must be settled into the water for it to work. Those who paddle with the bow light on the water are likely to be disappointed.

I should add that the no-correction stroke works whether the hull is a strong or weak carver. I haven't noticed any difference. It works with my slalom c-1, my Millbrook Wide Ride c-1, my old, non-carving Phoenix c-1, my Mad River Synergy OC-1, and my Millbrook "Big Boy", a carver that resembles a giant Ocoee. On that list, the Wide Ride and Synergy are relatively weak carvers, and as I said, the Phoenix is virtually a non-carver.

If you read carefully between the lines on the Bob Foote forward stroke video, on the Ford/Dickert/Foote Drill Time video, and on Bill Endicott's description of the later evolution of the forward stroke of Jon Lugbill and Davey Hearn, you will see that they have discovered the same thing. Study of the forward stroking of c-1 paddlers in the last two Olympics (and possibly earlier) will show that they are NOT using correction on most forward strokes. Only when their body motion, fore and aft, becomes more exaggerated, requiring a longer stroke where the paddle stays in the water past the hip, does a J correction become beneficial.

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Re: 2012 OC slalom nationals video

Post by pmp » Sat Nov 17, 2012 2:42 am

hey this is almost as much fun as paddling... of course talkin' about paddling always is.
Yeah in ww i'm not aware of doing the pitch stroke.. possibly because it happens behind the pivot point of the boat and i try not to be there too often. (i'm certainly going to experiment with it more next season) In the little fw racing i've done i use the pitch stroke a lot!
-switching sides... you know, for river running, creeking, ww freestyle i never switch sides. I've more than once exited a tough eddy backwards in order to be on the downstream side.(course i like backsurfing). But in slalom it's all about being fast... my onside stroke is stronger than my offside, so if it is a long offside carving turn, i switch sides. Now that i've seen it done well, I'm gonna practice the switch more.
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