C-Forum

I'm looking at the new Jackson Karma and really like the idea of the boat-- not only because Jackson will send me C1 outfitting from the factory, but because the length, width and what's been described as a flat bottomed hull sound like all of the characteristics that I really, really liked in my Dagger Atom. The high volume and rocker correct the two biggest things I did not like about my Atom.
These days I'm paddling an Ocoee, so even the large Karma which is has an insane (for a kayak) 103 gallons of volume and 9 feet of length seems like it shouldn't be that hard to handle compared to my open boat, and that's before you save all the weight of water sloshing around in the OC1!
Plus, I've heard that if you can maneuver and roll a larger volume boat as a C1 the advantages in speed and stability are generally worth it, because both of these are what typical K1 to C1 conversions lack.

But this is an extremely large boat compared to any kayak of just a few years ago. The medium Karma is a little bit closer to what I think of as a "large creekboat" at 86 gallons and 8'6".
These designs are different from the boats of a few years ago though... they have extreme rocker and edges to help with eddy turns-- I've paddled the LL Stomper as a kayak and found it amazingly easy to throw around considering how big it is. In fact, Jackson's page rates the massive version of the Karma as fitting paddlers down to just 165 pounds, as a K1. I'm 160 and would have the leverage of a single blade.
Is there any chance someone's paddled this (very new) design as a C1? If not, can someone who's paddled one of the newer creekboat designs like the Stomper or the Villain as a C1 comment on:
Maneuverability compared to an Atom or Ocoee? I'm looking for something a little more nimble, but my primary concern is more effective volume than either of these designs (bigger than the Atom, takes on less water than an Ocoee)
Ease of rolling? My combat roll in the open boat is a bit inconsistent... I assume nearly any C1 will be easier to roll than an Ocoee but these are extremely large boats and I'd like to have someone with experience chime in

Thanks in advance!

get the smaller size. itll be more nimble and maneuverable, but still have the qualities you want. the karma should be extremely easy to roll because of the shape. you would be swamped in the large.

This is a fairly hypothetical conversation at this point but I'll chime in that I rarely hear someone complaining that their C1 conversion creekboat is too large. Looking at the specs for the medium Karma as a Kayak you are in the middle of the weight range. As a C1 it may be small. The best way would be to try it but at this point I would reserve judgment. Maybe a good question to pose directly to Jackson.

arhdc wrote:This is a fairly hypothetical conversation at this point but I'll chime in that I rarely hear someone complaining that their C1 conversion creekboat is too large.

sure, how many people do you know that paddle a 100+ gallon c1?

@ only 160lbs I'm sure the large would be a huge drag. go M!

i havent paddled the karma yet, but i have paddled the ZEN outfitted c1. The large zen is 80ish gallons and i too weigh about 160 and its a great boat. its fast, maneuverable, flat bottom. i know its not a full on creekboat like the karma but i would take the Zen on any creek in a heartbeat. Ive seen the karma in person and it looks awesome, i think either a Large sen or medium karma would be good for your size. i used to paddle large creekboats thinking that they were gonna be more stable and easier to paddle as a c1, and that is somewhat true but ive found that i get better performance from a boat thats in my weight range. Not to mention that the larger boats are heavier and therefore harder to hike with. I really like the jackson C1 outfitting too, its a great starting point, with just a few tweaks it will feel perfect! if i get a chance to be in a karma soon i will let you know how it goes

I bought a large version K and converted it to a C1 in part because of its speed. But there are disadvantages as well. It was heavier than the other sizes/versions. And its length was at times more difficult to control in ww.

Next time, I'd go for a smaller version and use other techniques to gain & maintain speed.

Also, I bought a jackson boat and called jackson to talk about it. Talking made the decision. Call them.

I've pretty much been sold on the medium instead of the large.
A Mountainbuzz thread I turned up when searching for info on the boat mixed things up a bit because everyone who'd actually paddled the large said it felt maneuverable and easy to handle, compared to what the numbers would suggest... but the main reason I was thinking seriously about the large was the fact that as arhdc says I've never heard someone say their converted creekboat was too large-- and it's smaller in every measurable way than the Ocoee, so I should be able to handle it.
Thing is I don't actually need that much volume, and on further consideration I'm giving the weight of the boat on portages a lot of influence on the decision. I didn't mention this in my first post but how it is to carry will effect my enjoyment of it almost as much as the way it paddles. I'm leaning away from "if I can get away with the big one and still handle it, I should do that" and towards "if I can get away with the small one and still float, I should do that"

Thanks for the input everyone! I think I'm going to be buying this boat soon-ish and while I'm wary of being the guinea pig for a new design like this, somebody's got to do it. And I really am optimistic about the design being a good fit for me. I'll report back when I know more or actually have the boat on the water

I have paddled the Karma M c-1 on the Russell Fork and it is a very fast and forgiving boat. I also paddled the Zen 65 and thought that it was great for river running but I wanted more rocker for creekin'. Both boats are very easy to roll but take your time to tweak the outfitting and seat placement.
I am 5,11" / 170#. My boat is available to try if you want.

Bernie,

How would you compare the Karma to the Large Burn? I am 5'9" 185lbs. I like the looks of this boat, but have not seen it in person yet.

Jharris are you going to get it with Jackson C-1 outfitting or do your own?

Thanks for the input Bernie. I appreciate the offer to try the boat out but that's quite a road trip for me! I'll be getting it with Jackson C1 outfitting from the factory. I had to call Jackson to figure this out but despite the outfitting package costing $250 on its own, if you get a hull outfitted as a C1 from the factory there's only an additional $50 charge. That's less than supplies would cost to do my own conversion, and the adjustability of the Jackson setup sounds more versatile than anything but the most complex DIY conversions. Definitely looks like a better setup than something I could pull off

Smart move to let JK install the c-1 kit. When you get the boat a little trim work and your on the water.

I like the Burn because it has high initial stability, carves really well, and resurfaces on line. The Karma is more forgiving, stays on the surface, great secondary stability, rolls easy, and is really fast. Both kayaks make great C-1's.