C-Forum

Rather than continuing the thread-jack of the stink eye thread, I figured I'd start another one. Hypothetically speaking, what would be the magic numbers on a kiddie boat for weight and price? Obviously, lower is better for both, but I'm looking for practical values, rather than ideal numbers.

Jeremy, I'll be interested in what the consensus is! It seems like if sized for the really young they would outgrow it quickly so a compromise would be needed? I'm guessing 7 1/2-8' would be pretty good and around 26" would give them a longer time to use it. Slightly less rocker than our current boats. Center depth maybe 14"? You could have a hot seller in a nice shorter/thinner Option I think

I think just as important or maybe even more important is cost. Ideally there could be a couple sizes to get kids 6-7 years old started and then another one for 8-11 or so. My son was paddling a Prelude/Taureau just fine when he was 12 (he is a bigger kid though).

Before that he dabbled a bit solo and really enjoyed tandem with me. Not sure how much market there would be for a kids canoe (small at best). But I do think it is very good idea.

Kids have proven if they have appropirately sized equipment they do amazing things. The younger you can get a kid hooked on a canoe the more chance they will be hooked for life- which means way more boat sales in the long term. It has to be affordable for parents to buy and justify the cost. You can get used Jackson Fun 1 and Fun 1 1/2 for $400-500 and new a bit more. Parents have a lot of extra costs non- parents dont realize and kids constantly outgrow their gear all the time. I think what Jackson did with kids kayaks was brillant and probably driven by passion and EJ wanting to provide proper gear for his kids more than the bottom line.

My kids have had drysuits since the were 6 or 7 and now they will have nothing but. My son is on his 4th drysuit.(I can get em at wholesale so can justify) He will probably go through another 5-10 drysuits in his life time and more than likey have an impact on other kids/adults getting into a drysuit.

A boat would not have to be cheap- just affordable. I looked at a Splash several different times and never could justify the cost of it for a short period. The air tanks are a great concept but they do add weight and limit shipping potential. If you can think about shipping when you design a boat I think you will sell a lot more boats in the long run. Wether it is being able to nest several of the same boat togethor- to be assembled at destination or nesting different boats togethor to minimize shipping is a good thing. Your kids boat inside an Option inside and Octane probably would not be much more than shipping just an Octane. Shipping can be a major barrier the farther away you get from the source. Look at what weight and thickness dimesion reductions have done for TV sales. You can get probably 10 times the number of flatscreens vs old tube tvs on boat from China.- Total shipping cost the same but unit shipping cost 1/10th.


I am encourage you 110% to bring a plastic kids open boat to market as it will be great for the sport on so many levels.

On a side note wanted to send you a note to explore an idea. I hear there will be a cadet competition at the World Championships next year. Would be awesome if there would be some open boat youth there. You are in a position to help make it happen by potentially helping with having some boats available for youth to use there. I really wanted to take my son this year but too many things happening this summer and to many roadblocks for him to compete. I tried for about 8 months in advance to secure him either a spot on team Canada or a Yes he could compete in Open Canoe mens category to no avail. He was only 13 but he can really hold his own. He was ripping things up on the Ottawa in Aug.

I will once again try for next year and the fact their will be a seperate Cadet competition next year is encouraging. Would be great if there could be at least 4 or 5 kids in Open canoe there. I think it is possible. I am keen to bring Pelly there, but it is not a cheap or easy task. We live a long ways away.

Youth hold many keys to our future

I don't know if it is possible but I think a boat in the mid 20 lbs range would be ideal. The splash seems to have appropriate dimensions. Realistically, a childs boat will be running class 1/2 for most of it's life with class 3 for the exceptional child. Currently I cut down a Motion Adventures Prelude for my 8 year old grandaughter and it is still too large for her. I cut 1 1/2" out of the depth. Price wise try to stay in the same range as the Jackson kids boat.

The Splash seriously rocks as a kid (and small adult) boat. That magic IMhO is part size and part weight - it's difficult for a kid to get a heavy boat moving.

The biggest problem with the Splash, and why I think it hasn't taken off more, is price. Not saying it isn't worth the cost (the design, materials, and workmanship are all there), BUT most of us aren't willing to toss down that much cash for a boat for US, let alone our kids. Speaking somewhat for myself, and very much for the all the posts I've seen here and other places.

I think Ian's design might be even better to be honest (I really like the "decks"), but not having seen it in person or paddled it I can't say with any authority. (The splash sit's 16' from me as I type this...)

You're welcome to focus group with my kids some time, if we ever overlap in the rivers we're paddling. They're 12 and 9 right now, and they paddle easy class 1/2 in kid kayaks, class 3 in the bow of an OC-2 with me. They both love OC-2 and are active participants with solid strokes/cross strokes, rather than just being dead weight, but they don't have much interest in OC-1. "The boats are too big," is their response. PA/WV is where we paddle most often.

If it were to be a composite boat, I would say $600-$700 would be an attractive price for most parents. It doesn't have to be a fancy lay-up, just fiberglass. It would be approx 8' long, 26" wide in the waterline, and be approx 20lbs outfitted.
Regardless of what it is, the kid will out-grow it quickly.
You never know

My apologies for hijacking the other thread.

Kaz's specs sound really good to me.

I also think that some ability to customize the color or at least having a few color choices would be a plus for kids. Most of us are more concerned with how the boat paddles than what color it is, but for kids the color is probably going to be an important characteristic.

I know this will sound like heresy, but, here goes... A couple of months ago I took my younger son out with me when I was asked to teach an "intro to canoeing" class to the local paddlers club. I took examples of traditional "tripping", traditional whitewater solo (Zephyr), funky OC-1 (SF), and C-1 (a converted Score). I put my little guy - 4'? 60#? in the Score without a skirt and he did great - it was rock solid for his size and he could move it around (needed a shorter paddle, though).

MikeyB didn't mention this but he has put together a plan for a kids sized boat.

I am not going to get into the specifics for size but as a parent of an almost (the 21st of this month) 5 year old I think that Kaz is spot on with a price point of $600-700 (maybe a but more) as being the biggest key to making a kids boat go, that and it being truly kid sized. If the price is too high it is tough to justify buying a new boat that is going to be grown out of and maybe the kid wont like anyway. I look at kids kayaks as an example (I know, the "K" word, don't ban me ). Jackson Fun1's sell new for approx $800 and used from $350-550 ($450-500 being the going price used). The Fun1 is a truly kid sized boat, will serve several children as long as they can fit into it and is the go to kayak for small kids. With an opening price of $800 parents can buy a new boat an feel confident that they are only risking $300 on a venture that may not work out. Used there is almost no financial risk, buy it for $500 and resell it for $450-500, no worries. From what I have seen Fun1's do not wear out, kids are light and don't do crazy runs and the boats last and last.

I think that a kids canoe is going to need to be similar to a Fun1 to make it work, the price need not be quite as low as a kids canoe can be made to accommodate a larger size range (there are also the Fun1.5 and the 2Fun) thus longer useful life but still low enough that a parent can buy one and not be crazy wondering of the kid will use it. It should also be noted that the Fun series of kayaks while not the most unforgiving, are edgy little beasts and kids LOVE them. Kids have better reflexes than us big folks and can do amazing things. Lesson learned, kids boats should not be dummed down too much, the kids are better at learning than we are.

That's my take. I plan on trying to put together a prototype of MikeyB's little boat (I call it the Wink) this winter if things work out, I'll post here when I start.

I am so glad to see this thread happening. I was considering getting a Splash for next season for my son who will be 7, but had given up the idea due to the high price. I am exited to think a OC might be a reality for him now. As mentioned before I think Kaz has the concept pretty well figured out. I think the Splash dimensions and weight are also a great guide to go by, but the price must stay less than $1000 to keep this idea realistic for most people. My personal feeling on dimensions would be 8ft long, weight 30 lbs or less, width 25 inches, and price $1000 or less. Strong initial and secondary stability should also be a big concern. If someone can make this concept a reality I would put a deposit down for next seasons boat today.

Thoughts on this.

The girl wants one but everything it too big for her at 5'2" 110# and is strong but in a girlie kind of way (has endurance general strenght but not explosive or bulk).

She has tried that cut down Spanish Fly (CutFly) and it wouldn't track for her (or me) but was sized nice, the Spark - liked the speed but the lenght was a bit much, the Zoom - next, Spanish Fly - kept banging her hands on the gunwales and the Option - which she surprisingly liked the best. No Ion or Stinkeye... yet.

Keys on wish list: Weight (for carrying - dad is not looking to become a sherpa) and sizing to her (to body and its tracking).

She gets the C thing via paddling OC2 and C2 with me so... we await!

PS: it would be cool if dad could hop in it for after work runs and that it would fit inside the vehicle (shades of the Cutfly, Ion, blackfly, C1 play boats, etc.)

The price should be in the 600-700 range and the weight less than 30 lbs. I think you target age should be 9 -15 years old. I don't think my son could have handled any solo canoe when he was 6-8 years old, he just did not have the reach or the strength. The fact is canoeing is a bit more difficult than kayaking. Developing a boat for older kids will allow small adults to use. My son is in a Kayak now, sure wish I had a small OC-1 to put him in a few years back! I think this is a great idea, getting more kids into open boating means more adults will be buying open boats!

It would be great to see more young people paddling OC. I don't think open boaters my age (20) in Ontario even exist. I think that a new kids boat would be fantastic. Here are some things I think would be good.

- Like others said, affordable. Probably 800 tops
- Durable. So that there is a decent resale value on it. Less risk
- Choice of colour. Or just red so it's faster
- Adjustable outfitting

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the Splash would sell much better if it were made by a company that was better known in the OC community. I've never seen one, so I can't comment on the flexibility of its outfitting, but my impression is that you would have to tear out the outfitting to resize it significantly. If you can get a boat on the market with a sufficient amount of adjustment in its outfitting, you have something that can be resold, and people would be more willing to invest more on the front end.

I would rather pay $1200 for a boat that can be adjusted to several paddlers, or to a child that is growing, than spend $800 on a boat that wouldn't fit a child more than 2 years, and would be tough to "hand-me-down". I don't love the Northwater adjustable outfitting for my own purposes, but for a kids boat, it might be just the ticket. Multiple "bolt-in" options on a plastic boat would provide similar benefits.

http://www.northwater.com/html/products ... chors.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.northwater.com/html/products ... addle.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hope this helps,
Shep