Detonator compared to Viper 11?

[Yossarian]

Hey folks,

Shopping for my first full on WW boat, need some advice. I've spent some time in a Probe 11, liked the never ending stability but other than that found it pretty uninspiring. I've been paddling a Detonator for a few paddles now and quite like it. It's challenging but not so much so that I feel totally over my head. My only complaint with the Det is that I'd like something a touch longer/faster. Would a Viper 11 be a good fit? How do they compare in terms of initial and secondary stability? Are there any other similar performing boats that I should be looking at?

I've only been paddling whitewater for 4 months, seem to be picking it up fairly quick though. I'm 6', 155 lbs. Paddling class II/III rivers.

Any advice is much appreciated!

[arhdc]

I'm not the best one to answer this perhaps but I don't know that a Viper 11 is your best choice. A Viper 11 is a fairly advanced boat that also has limitations.

I would suggest something more along the lines of a Blackfly Option or Ion, Millbrook Sacho or Stinkeye or an Esquif L'Edge. All of these boats will provide great performance and allow you to progress.

[jakke]

In my opinion, the Viper11 is still the best balanced canoe on the market, spec wise. It's not dry, but other then that, it is well balanced when it comes to stability, responsiveness, speed, acceleration. It has hard rails, that soften towards bow and stern, allowing you to use them, learn to appreciate them, but soften the learning process by scraping of a bit of the sharpness when it comes to timing (due to softening of the rails at bow or stern).

The Detonator is a different story, first you should determine if you like the double rails, I personally don't. It's slow but dry, turns well. But then again, I've only spent 20 minutes in it or so, with outfitting that was not right for me.

And I'll guess suggestions like L'Edge will pop up as well. Now this will probably be an unpopular answer, but I don't think the L'Edge is a good successor for the Probe. Don't get me wrong, I've gotten myself a L'Edge 2 weeks ago, and I love it more every time I paddle it. I think it's a great boat, in skilled hands. It's teaching me quite some lessons, even on grade I/II. The L'Edge is slow, as soon as you stop paddling, the stern skids out. The hard rails pick up current differentials really fast. Waw that boat is spinny! You could pull a L'Edge into an eddy, not paddle it into an eddy, much like you see many paddlers do with Spanish Fly 's. On the one hand, the L'Edge begs for an active, dynamic paddling style, but gives you a hard time doing so on the other hand.

It all depends on your ambition as a paddler. If you enjoy paddling slalom style down the rapids, my suggestion is a Viper11 or an Ocoee or alike - but something with rails, except for the spark.
If not slalom-ish oriented, whatever it might be - straight down, big wet lines, drop-n-pool, no pun intended here nor judgement, then a Detonator (Nitro?), L'Edge, Option are options.

But anyhow, the harder whitewater you paddle, the more skills you have to put together. So you'll probably end up needing slalom skills, straight down skills, surfing, boofing waves holes and drops, vertical moves, ... .

[pblanc]

I can't comment on the Detonator. I pretty much agree with jakke's assessment of the Viper 11.

Although the Viper 11 is not "fast" in terms of top speed, it accelerates up to speed fast and feels "quick". It's biggest drawback is that it is a tad wet. As was said, although the center of the boat has a pretty sharp chine, the ends have a lot of fullness and flare and the sharp-chined central section is fairly short, so the boat does not feel as "edgy" as one might suspect. The Viper 12 in comparison feels edgier and I think the Ocoee also feels a bit edgier than the Viper 11.

The L'Edge is dry and stable, but if you are looking for something that feels faster than a Detonator, I would forget about it. The L'Edge is slow.

[Yossarian]

I don't see the L'edge, option or ion as a step in the right direction (all being shorter and I imagine slower than the detonator). Poly would be nice for durability but the rivers I'm paddling don't make that a major consideration.

So am I to understand that a Viper 11's going to have a significantly steeper learning curve than a detonator? At this point I don't think I could comfortably paddle a boat much more advanced than the detonator.

[pblanc]

It's really hard to predict how much of a learning curve the Viper would present for you. Some people have enough trouble with sharper-chined boats that they become discouraged quickly and others don't seem to have much difficulty mastering them.

The sharper chine allows one to drop it down in the water somewhat like a keel by weighting one knee which gives improved directional stability on ferries and allows crisper carved turns. If you are really adept, weighting the offside knee (for an onside turn) allows one to execute a very dynamic eddy turn.

But initially paddlers unfamiliar with a sharper chine may find themselves "tripping over" the chine when it hangs on a rock, or getting pitched over unexpectedly when a chine moves over a cross-current.

The first edgy boat I owned and paddled was a Viper (12) shortly after Mohawk started molding them, which I feel behaves a bit edgier than the Viper 11, and I did take a few unexpected swims. But I fairly quickly got used to keeping one or the other knee weighted when paddling the boat, and became sensitive to instinctively unweighting one knee and weighting the other when I felt the edge contact a rock.

Some very good paddlers prefer softer-chined boats. If you are looking for a soft-chined boat that seems a bit more lively than a Detonator, you might try out a Mad River Outrage. If you could locate a Dagger Rival in decent shape, it would also suit your weight very well.

[Yossarian]

Ah ok, I thought the detonator had a bit of edge to it and the viper might not be too different. I guess the double chines are sort of a compromise between the round chines of the probe and the edge of the viper?

I'll wait to take a viper for a spin before I consider it any further.

[FullGnarlzOC]

The Detonator chines are more forgiving than the Vipers chines. Stability - they feel around the same - again Detonator is going to be more forgiving.

Plus sides to getting a Viper 11 over a Denator = it sounds like you are more on rivers than creeking, so a viper 11 is going to give you more reward(more fun) - with the harder chines... IE it's more enjoyable to let the boat do the work, and take off, as opposed to having to power through moves.

Roll wise - they are about the same - pretty darn easy to roll.


If you decide speed and skill progression are what you are looking for - Viper 11, for more manueverability and forgiveness = Detonator.

[Paddle Power]

I agree with what FullGnarlzOC stated

If you decide speed and skill progression are what you are looking for - Viper 11,
for more manueverability and forgiveness = Detonator.

[jakke]

I don't really agree with the Detonators chines being more forgiving. There are 2 of them, they can give some unpleasant surprises, been there .

For the Record, the Ocoee is indeed edgier then the Viper11. Timing is more important there, because the rails go along the whole length of the sides.

@Yossarian: what probe do you paddle now? 11, 12?

A Viper11 would compare quite well to a Probe11 speedwise, stability wise. But it is quite a bit spicier, and not a boat you'd outgrow fast. There are people running some nice stuff in Vipers, even today!

I wouldn't say the Viper has a steeper learning curve, a different for sure, but not necessarily steeper. Both designs are fun, but as mentioned:
riverrunning: Viper
Creeking: Detonator (but then you might want to look at L'Edge, Option, Spanish Fly, Prelude, as well)

And in my opinion, it's good to do some more river running in a somewhat harder boat to paddle, then stepping up to harder whitewater in the same boat, especially if you're not paddling too long.

[drrpm]

I got a Viper 11 recently and have paddled a Caption and the Probe 12 and 14 previously. I have only had the Viper out twice so far so there is plenty of learning ahead of me. The Viper is far livelier than those big boats and less stable as well. The edge had me testing its secondary stability a couple times but by the end of my first trip I starting to feel a lot more comfortable. It probably would not be that hard a transition from the Probe 11 to the Viper 11 since you're already used to a shorter, narrower boat.

[Chris S.]

Reading these posts makes me want to get my Viper back out on the water...have a couple 11s, a 12, and a few other boats collected over the years. I can only speak about the Viper...most of the new boat names are unfamiliar since I haven't paddled much in the last few years. I'm one of those that tend to stick with one boat regardless of whether I'm running a steep creek or big water river...Viper has worked well for me for over ten years (never liked the Ocoee much). Loved my R-lite Rival but it barely lasted a season. Installing a bilge pump made runs like Big Creek and Caney Fork much less tiring:)...my $.02.