C-Forum

A frind of mine bought a vertige x. because there aare not many (like none) tandem crew I know in 500 km/miles from us. I woudl like some tips.I have the book thrills of the paddle. So that helps. But anything alse could help.

With a good tandem team, the bow paddler keeps the boat on line and the stern paddler provides the power. I don't really know any tandem crews either and I'm a lot closer to whitewater. My tandem experience comes from the couple of trips I make each year with one of my daughters.

drrpm wrote:With a good tandem team, the bow paddler keeps the boat on line and the stern paddler provides the power. I don't really know any tandem crews either and I'm a lot closer to whitewater. My tandem experience comes from the couple of trips I make each year with one of my daughters.

That's not always true. Many slalom teams put the power in front, and the bow paddler provides correction strokes only on the up-stream gates. The stern does the majority of steering, and by keeping the bow paddler actively paddling, momentum is not lost.

My suggestion is to look at the videos that have been posted from the nationals. They show some very good tandem slalom techniques, and those techniques translate well when you paddle technical rivers or creeks.

Agree that it depends on the team. My son and his buddy paddle with the power in bow and tech in the stern. I paddle with son in front for tech and me in stern for whatever. Paddle with my light teenage daughter in bow with the fat guy in the back for trim.
Suggest you as a team try out the different configurations to see what suits you as a team.
In tandem the key is to always remember to laugh at yourselves and have a good time - otherwise there will be some serious hate and some very long days!!! Keep us posted!

I recently paddled a Vertige x on low water technical run, with a brand new partner in a new
boat with lots of tight, boney moves ahead if us.
I went in bow (more experienced) and our plan (my plan) was: the bow paddler calls the shots, reads the river, commits to the moves.
The stern paddler reads "the bow paddler": watches his move, the lean, and compliments the paddle stroke. The stern paddler was to not read the river and.... No Talking !!!

We had a riot.

The first benefit of having a more experienced paddler in the bow was that we committed to more radical moves with more confidence, something that the less experienced stern paddler might have passed on. Eyes were opened as to what was possible.

Second benefit was the No Talking: less delay in decision making and less confusion on direction.
Talking confuses the issue, just go.

If it sounds like dictatorship, well we had one of best tandem runs ever, laughing all the way down the river. There were pins, broaches, upsets & swims but at the end we both wished we had another river to run.

communication, communication, communication

There are as many different styles of paddling tandem as there are tandem paddling teams, so the bottom line is that you do what works for you and your partner of the moment.

However, in the rarely seen ideal world of a tandem team with equal power, skill, and experience there is a reason why the bowman initiates turns in WW. When a sternman initiates a turn his stroke acts first - and primarily - to pull or push the stern. This action only subsequently impacts the direction in which the bow moves as the boat continues forward. When a bowman initiates a turn, the bow is immediately pulled or pushed in the desired direction. Take a guess which method is most effective in making quick, decisive turns in the midst of a tight, technical rock garden.

This principle, as well as the fact that the bowman has the best view of the river ahead, is probably a large part of why Einar chose to paddle bow with his less experienced partner. However, if your partner is a true novice who doesn't know how to keep the stern following the bowman's lead, or lacks the power to do so (e.g. if you're paddling with a small child), then you may be better off with the experienced paddler in the stern. Other considerations in deciding who paddles where depend upon relative torso height, reach, and proximity of the seats. In general (with other factors being equal, which is rarely the case), the person with the higher torso height and longer reach is better off in the stern - something that increases in desirability as the seats get closer together in the canoe. It's possible for a petite 5'2" paddler to man the stern behind a 6'4" middle linebacker, but put them in a close cockpit C-2 or OC-2 and it won't take long for that tandem team to steer straight into trouble.

As for deciding between Einar's mantra of "no talking" vs. cantrouge's watchward "communication, communication, communication," I would urge a careful combination of both. While an experienced tandem team often knows what each other is doing or going to do, without verbal communication, they probably engaged in alot of communication along the road to acquiring that experience together. Discussing and agreeing upon goals for a river trip is important to ensuring both that you're on the same trip together and keeping the option open to paddling together more than once. However, Einar's "no talking" mantra is correct if he means that a tandem canoe can't have two captains. In WW ONE person has to call the shots. Again, with all other things equal, the bowman is in the best position to be the captain in the midst of a run, as the person with the best view and the one who should initiate turns. If the sternman doesn't like the bowman's call, the time to discuss it is in the eddy at either the top or the bottom of the run, NOT while it's happening.

John

Thanks John!
Especially for your last 4 sentences... Never thought anyone would understand me anytime at all...

Tandem really IS fun - if you get along with your partner

So get out and find the right one

Cornelia

I can't disagree with anything said so far. Slalom racing isn't the same as river running, which is how I imagine a Vertige would be used. Have fun, discuss any rapid of significance before you run it, don't blame your partner if you flip (even if it's their fault) and you'll have happy days in the boat.

In a small tandem such as the vertige x, boat trim is critical.

Great reply J.C., good analysis.

In pushing the NoTalk idea, it wasn't that my stern partner didn't have anything good to say, she did, but the event is always over by the time the shouting's over the rapid noise, the pointing's with the paddle, and the "Whaaaat?... Say again?"s were dealt with.

One of Merle's comments on the run is that she had to push her level of Trust right up to the edge of her comfort level but then, that is not such a bad thing. Canoeing ww pushes comfort levels, tandem or solo.
Also, while I couldn't see her moves, that we had fun and kept on going for it meant that she was doing great. Trust cuts both ways.

(At the beginning we agreed that at anytime we would swap at one persons request, no argument, no pressure)

Tandem tips---- Yes, it certainly do!


John Coraor: "It's possible for a petite 5'2" paddler to man the stern behind a 6'4" middle linebacker, but put them in a close cockpit C-2 or OC-2 and it won't take long for that tandem team to steer straight into trouble."

John, did you ever see Hoppy and Mary Eager race c-2? Hoppy was near 6' 5" and strongly built. Mary was maybe 5' 3" and about 105 pounds. Hoppy paddled bow. They had offset cockpits so Mary could look under Hoppy's left armpit. She was strong for her size, stroked hard enough to help balance Hoppy's effort, and ruddered as needed.

Communication, is more about letting your partner know of what you want to do, and that start on land. I agree that some time it is better to stay quite and go with the flow... As long as both of you agreed to do so!!
Cheers
And have fun

thanks all,

Keep it coming.

We will be river running, Slalom oc is an non existing thing here in europe. I think we can communicate 3 hours in the driving to the river and 3 hours back...

If trim critical in a vertige x then I think bow heavy is better, but I think the lighter guy has more expiericance in the bow then the heavy guy.

It is all about playing the river , just bobbing downstream is not our cup of tea.

Lennart wrote:A frind of mine bought a vertige x. because there aare not many (like none) tandem crew I know in 500 km/miles from us. I woudl like some tips.I have the book thrills of the paddle. So that helps. But anything alse could help.

http://www.bushpaddler.de/index.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
One of most experienced tandem crew in Europe. Not so far away from you.