C-Forum

I've been taking my L'edge out a lot and really enjoying it, but after getting absolutely beat down on a high water upper meadow run today I'm finally convinced me to move over to C-1. What should I look for when buying one? Just buy a creek boat kayak and convert it?

Look at these guys....http://www.riverelf.com/index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, millbrook boats make a few c1 specific boats also. but I think that the RiverElf boat is more new school than what Kaz offer, I might be wrong though.
I would go with a real c1 design to be a c1.
Good luck

Convert a kayak, Ideally a wide one (i use 27" or more as a guideline) it's cheap, they're plentiful, and you'll learn how to bodge outfitting like never before.

That said... It may well be harder than paddling an OC at first... even purpose built c1's are different to opens when it comes to paddling them.

As always it depends on where you plan to paddle, your paddling style, and what you want to spend.

LOTS of creeking has been done in older (higher volume) slalom boats (by folks far better paddlers than I!.. watching then on the Bottom Moose for instance was a bit eye-opening for me at the time).

That said, I certainly am not about to recommend creeking in a long pointy boat.

Assuming what you are after is a creek boat, here are a few to look in to (images of most in the Boat Museum as well):
-Dagger Cascade (Plastic). Long by today's standards, but the definitive "play" and "creek" boat at the time.
-Magnet (in theory Class V will be producing them shortly)
-Finkenmeister (again plastic)
-Millbrook Hornet (narrowed / shortened Cascade is the best description)
-The new River Elf boat, which looks very interesting to me.

There are numerous other designs that may not work, or may be ideal, depending again on how you paddle. To name a few:
-Blackwater, Hahn (old school boats that work well for expeditions... high volume)
-Amoeba (newer design I'm quite fond of... it's surprised my by it's versatility)
-Descender (a bit long for my tastes, but Peter Zurfleigh fells it was the best of his designs... the others being the Aerobat, Acrobat, and Edge (all squirt boats)
-Atom - lots of folks have gone creeking in an Atom. Doesn't work well for my weight, but that's just me....


In case I'm way off base and you are more interest in river running, there are many EXCELLENT c-1 specific river runners out there. To name a few of my personal favorites:
-New Wave / PS Composites Viper (long and fast, surfs great too)
-Shaggy Sith (if I could only own one boat... it would likely be a Sith... what I used to say about the Viper
-Millbrook Amoeba - fast, surfs great, comfortable.

Lots of boats in the "Boat Museum" under Navigation... some may suit you better than the ones named above.

Sure, having a collection of retro c1s is cool, but if you just want a boat that works..... Convert. There is no shame.
You'll be able to choose from a slew of modern, plastic boats that work really well.

Larry Horne wrote:Sure, having a collection of retro c1s is cool, but if you just want a boat that works..... Convert. There is no shame.
You'll be able to choose from a slew of modern, plastic boats that work really well.

Don't forget how cheap it is compared to a composite boat (maybe not if you're buying a brand new boat, but with so many second hand kayaks... there's barely any need to).

The clue is in the name of the thread

I'll happily admit many of the designs are old school... as noted. But then they are typically cheaper than a used kayak shell, too:)

I tend to think of at least the Finkenmeister as a "current" creek design, as well as the brand new boat from River Elf, of course:)

The Amoeba really isn't a creek design, but isn't that old, either.

I have a converted Mystic, which is great for the steeper rocky runs.

Wide enough to be stable, and the back of the cockpit is high enough to comfortably get your feet under and have room for hip pads and seat etc.

I have (hopefully) attached a picture of it in use.

I will second the Mystic as a creeker. Big, stable, comfortable, rolls easy. Has some edge, but at the same time is stupidly forgiving. I do have some issues holding a line in big, pushy water. That could, of course, be my utter lack of technique though.

I'd be curious to try a Tuna

Some boats that I haven't paddled personally, but seem to get converted a lot :

Jefe & Jefe Grande
Everest
Burn

I have heard that the Villain paddles a lot like an open boat, but without the annoying "open" part.

Lots of options, most anything with a wide, flat hull seems to work reasonably well.

Silent Bob wrote:I will second the Mystic as a creeker. Big, stable, comfortable, rolls easy. Has some edge, but at the same time is stupidly forgiving. I do have some issues holding a line in big, pushy water. That could, of course, be my utter lack of technique though.

I'd be curious to try a Tuna

Some boats that I haven't paddled personally, but seem to get converted a lot :

Jefe & Jefe Grande
Everest
Burn

I have heard that the Villain paddles a lot like an open boat, but without the annoying "open" part.

Lots of options, most anything with a wide, flat hull seems to work reasonably well.

I'd be curious to paddle a Tuna too it looks good. I also want to try a Zet Director, which dwarfs every other kayak/prospective C1 on the market.

I'm in a Jefe Grande currently, and I like it a lot, but I wouldn't paddle one on big volume, the major advantage for me is that I don't have to worry about the edges biting or tripping on shallow rocks unexpectedly yet it will still carve around fairly well; they lack glide and follow their noses though, which means that if you want to break in to a fast flow, you better be leaning back and ideally carry some speed or it will just spin right round on the eddyline, and you need to stay on top of it, or it will just send you wherever the fastest flow is headed.

Honestly, it's an awesome conversion for shallow creeking, but overall it's average to slightly above average, the Gus is better (which I why I've kept mine even though I'm too heavy for running shallow stuff in it).

I'm currently trying to get hold of a Fink to try, I'm not convinced it will suit me or the rivers I'm paddling, but I'd like to see for myself; it seems to have some of the qualities I liked so much in the Gus, and is also more stable and faster by virtue of being designed as a C1...

I will say one thing, for all swamping and being slower to roll is a swine... sometimes an open boat is more comforting to paddle and the huge volume can be rather helpful too, I see my Prelude as something of a medieval battering ram, to the Grande's sledgehammer.

Thanks for the replies guys -- I'm looking into everything mentioned and am excited to try a c-1. Is it significantly different paddling wise? I love the l'edge but for some of the water I am moving into an open boat is a problem. Was on the Upper Meadow the other day (which is famous for having a 4-mile rapid without any real pools) at higher water so it was big churning water and meaty holes for 4 miles. It was totally within my skill level but filling up was unavoidable and ended up taking the worst swim of my life that would have been avoided if I wasn't full of water.

Obviously filling up with water is a big difference. Are they significantly more maneuverable and such?

SamS wrote:Thanks for the replies guys -- I'm looking into everything mentioned and am excited to try a c-1. Is it significantly different paddling wise? I love the l'edge but for some of the water I am moving into an open boat is a problem. Was on the Upper Meadow the other day (which is famous for having a 4-mile rapid without any real pools) at higher water so it was big churning water and meaty holes for 4 miles. It was totally within my skill level but filling up was unavoidable and ended up taking the worst swim of my life that would have been avoided if I wasn't full of water.

Obviously filling up with water is a big difference. Are they significantly more maneuverable and such?

A long time ago it used to be when I switched back and forth between my open boats and converted kayaks, it took a bit of adjusting to the tippiness or the lower seat, but ... Not so much. The wider kayaks of the last 6 (8?) years result in very stable paddling platforms and the "long boat" revival gives you some speed. I spend no time adjusting when going from Spanish Fly to Remix, even when I'm rusty. They even weigh about the same... SF, with bags, about 48. Remix with bags and skirt, about 45. Maneuverablility? About the same, though in my case, a lot less edge in the convert, but that also makes it more user friendly in many places. You aren't going to be looking for a boat with a stern slicey enough to pivot turn if it is creeking you are looking to do.

A pump is cheaper, though

The guy I'm video boating for is selling me a nice Jackson Villain for really cheap. However, I just looked up the outfitting to buy for it here: http://store.jacksonkayak.com/c1-outfitting/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and it's 250 dollars. Any way to do this cheaper?

SamS wrote: Any way to do this cheaper?

Yes.

You can use a Cascade/Atom/Gyramax/Slasher saddle. Pretty cheap and not too hard to come by. Or you can take the homebrew approach with Minicell, PVC pipe, fence posts, and other various bits of hardware. There are endless ways to do it, most have been documented here over the years. A little searching on the forum will yield more outfitting information than you ever wanted to see .

Go to members list and contact Bernie #50. He has some outfitting stuff he has made up that is really nice. Good advice also.