open and closed designs...history?

Decked Canoes, Open Canoes, as long as they're canoes!

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Rand C1
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Re: open and closed designs...history?

Post by Rand C1 » Sun Jun 23, 2013 10:27 pm

My remarks to our correspondent were a very mild suggestion that he was incorrect in his generalization. If I had made similar generalizations about open boaters on this forum the invective would have been incredible.
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Re: open and closed designs...history?

Post by TheKrikkitWars » Sun Jun 23, 2013 11:19 pm

Apparently, you missed the whole point of Adam's post there... Shame really, as it was pretty impressive insight to derive that from two short, sarcastic posts.

Anyway, you could have just said "I think you're incorrect"... It would have communicated your intent much more clearly and I wouldn't have felt compelled to reply in kind.
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Re: open and closed designs...history?

Post by cadster » Mon Jun 24, 2013 1:12 pm

The fear of entrapment and the inability to master rolling are common reasons people chose to paddle an open canoe in whitewater. There’s also a need by some to distinguish themselves from kayakers that get blurred when C1ing. The sense of security given by a larger open hull is false once the boat takes on water.

Kayaking is more about quick responses and staying flexible. C1ing is even more demanding on timing and takes strategizing to compensate for the single blade. Open boating emphasizes river reading with the focus on choosing a dry line. Open boating requires the most strength to paddle.

With the large selection of kayak hulls to be converted to C1, the rule that open canoes are more forgiving than C1’s isn’t generally true. There are also performance OC1’s that are demanding to paddle.

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Re: open and closed designs...history?

Post by arhdc » Mon Jun 24, 2013 3:04 pm

It seems the hard core OC guys are all off sleeping off the weekend in a ditch someplace (you know who you are :wink: ) so I'll make a pitch for why I OC.


I came into WW by progression from family camping trips in big tandems (I ran my first class II+/-III tandem in a Wenonah Kingfisher tandem loaded for camping with a 3 year old in the boat) and WW OC was the only option I ever considered. Looking at other open boaters of my boating generation who have been at this less than 5 years I see either folks that just started OC because it looked like what they wanted OR kayakers looking for more challenge. With the lack of new plastic C1's and the newer PE OC's that are available, OC's really are the path of least resistance over converting a K1 for most starting out single blading.


I have dabbled with C1's a tiny bit, though never in one that really fit me correctly in terms of outfitting or boat volume so my experiences have been along the lines of scary difficult and uncomfortable. I don't object to decked boats as a rule but I really find the aesthetics and simplicity of OC's more appealing. Some here may have issues with the idea of an open boat being simpler but really just not having to deal with packing, putting on myself, stretching over cockpit rim, pulling to get out, taking off, repacking and then drying a skirt to be a series of steps that I just don't care for. To be honest as a child of the bulkhead saddle era I find even thigh straps to be tedious to deal with. I guess a lot of it comes down to what one is accustomed to but I don't really feel a draw toward C1's (or those K boats) over my OC's at this point.
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Re: open and closed designs...history?

Post by John Coraor » Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:33 pm

I started out in open canoes (mainly wilderness tripping, but also some whitewater back in the Grumman era), moved to kayak, then to C-2, then C-1, and most recently I've been paddling more OC-1 because my legs don't last very long in a low kneel anymore.

I like them all, they are each different and interesting in their own right. However, if I had to pick a single boat that I enjoy the most it would be C-2. They're a blast to paddle with a good partner; I just can't keep kneeling in one much longer than a single run down a slalom course!

John

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Re: open and closed designs...history?

Post by foggnm » Thu Jun 27, 2013 1:59 am

I had the opportunity last weekend to borrow an old Millbrook super Hahn. It was interesting. I enjoyed feeling more 'in' the water. But while I read that some find little difference between the pedestal heights, I'd say an 8" OC1 vs this 6" C1 seat was a pretty big difference....and I could feel it. Given that it was nearly 100 degrees, I peeled back the skirt much of the time for comfort. I could definitely see myself wanting one as my paddling advanced and I became more comfortable with the position. But for now, I decided an OC1 is the best option for 90% of what I'll be doing. If a year or two from now I find I'm going down continuous class IV rapids and want to stay dry....I will reconsider the C1. I just ordered a Millbrook open canoe. Thanks to all who included their input!
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Re: open and closed designs...history?

Post by Kelly-Rand » Thu Jun 27, 2013 2:30 am

I believe what direction you choose has a lot to do with what you want to achieve, which changes over time.

Most of us started out in casual circumstances paddling on lakes or easy rivers, and then were introduced to more exciting venues that sparked our interest like yourself. So if we eliminate canoeing for camping and general hanging out on ponds there are these factors that contribute to the direction you take.

River running to find the driest line on a challenging beautiful river
River running to explore what you can do in the various features you encounter.
River running to explore more in depth what the various features have to offer.
River running as a style of paddling that is very precise and is a form of ballet.

I think as you continue boating the above will become apparent to you and depending on the amount of time you want to invest and maybe pain to be endured you will come to some understanding and the boat will be what best serves.
Jim KR

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a C-1 I will stand"

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Re: open and closed designs...history?

Post by Sir Adam » Thu Jun 27, 2013 11:58 am

I'd just raise the seat in that Hahn to 8"... All boats are more stable with lower saddles, but many wider boats do just fine with a bit of height. I had a Viper with an 8" seat... comfy alll day.

As far as changing seat heights, I've found as little as a .25 inch makes a difference, both for comfort and stability.

An open boat doesn't HAVE to have a high seat... and a C1 doesn't HAVE to have a low one... though those certainly do seem to be the norms (OC1 8-10", C1 6" (slalom paddlers cut theirs down to 4" or less. Yikes!)
Keep the C!
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Re: open and closed designs...history?

Post by sbroam » Thu Jun 27, 2013 12:00 pm

I see a lot of folks talking about pain and C-1 and usually refer to lower seats - I have very similar seat heights in my C-1s to my OC-1s. In some boats that didn't work, it sacrificed too much stability - I don't paddle those boats (Slasher, Rockit) anymore! I've got 8" +/- seats in my Remix (79), Score, Spanish Fly, Zephyr, ME ... There is only pain if I'm not paddling often enough.

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Re: open and closed designs...history?

Post by John Coraor » Thu Jun 27, 2013 8:34 pm

sbroam wrote:There is only pain if I'm not paddling often enough.
This point is easily forgotten.

For a variety of reasons, I wasn't able to get out paddling this spring until just recently, when the girls were briefly home from college and wanted to catch a quick river trip. I took my OC-1 because its higher seat is much more comfortable for a river cruise only to find that it wasn't nearly as comfortable as I remembered. Clearly my legs were out of shape for paddling because of the long period of paddling inactivity.

Getting used to paddling in any kind of kneel takes time in the boat - usually repeated and frequent time in the boat - to occur. The lower the kneel the more time and effort required. Finally, keeping adjusted to paddling in a kneel requires continued paddling in that position. While there are some exercises that help, generally you've got to put in the time.

John

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Rand C1
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Re: open and closed designs...history?

Post by Rand C1 » Thu Jun 27, 2013 9:03 pm

I increased the seat height in both of my C1s to 7 3/4" (Fink & Cascade).
Rand

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Re: open and closed designs...history?

Post by PAC » Thu Jun 27, 2013 11:27 pm

Saddle is between 8 and 8.5" in all my boats (except for the cquirt - acrobat =3.5").

Never have a problem with being uncomfortable and usually have to wait on the yak buddies when in their play boats (when they have to get out and stretch)!

Have a better roll because of it too!! :o But that works out as a plus too in the long run!
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Re: open and closed designs...history?

Post by Kelly-Rand » Fri Jun 28, 2013 2:40 am

I've speculated that a higher saddle in a C1 might actually make it easier to roll up. I remember rolling PAC's boat at the playhole on the NB, the skirt had popped even but it was so easy to come up. This was the viper, and I think you or Mike have pictures.
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a C-1 I will stand"

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Re: open and closed designs...history?

Post by lung » Fri Jun 28, 2013 6:29 am

Congrats on the Milbrook purchase! I've yet had the pleasure to check one out in person. Look like some great boats.

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Re: open and closed designs...history?

Post by valhallalongboats » Thu Jul 11, 2013 4:20 am

Seems like this thread has been left, but I'll toss in my two cents just in case the original poster is still reading this. If not, that's OK, as most likely not too many folks are overly interested in what I have to say anyway. ;)

Every person will choose his or her own boating style based entirely on their own personal preference. My first whitewater experiences all involved paddling an open canoe, and when I was younger, it never really occurred to me to try and switch to a kayak or raft. I didn't see the point. I was a canoeist...and that was all. Almost every open boater will eventually get tired of bailing (well, prior to electric pumps, at least) and start to look at either a kayak or C-1. I'd spent far too much of my paddling career mocking kayaker friends in a good-natured way about wearing skirts, using training wheels, and generally being girly-men for me to even consider how much harassment would be directed my way if I started kayaking, and besides, kayaking will never be as beautiful as the single blade. I therefore started getting into C-1's. They are not as comfortable, but the lack of bailing was very nice. I began to notice though, that even when I was teaming up with my kayak buddies to head for some class IV or even low V runs...it was the open canoe I would put on the truck. I was just more comfortable, even in the big stuff, paddling an open boat....I was just more accustomed to it. My very simple advice is to paddle everything you can get your hands on, and stick with whatever style feels the best to you. There is an upper limit to what can be done in an open canoe, but those bounds get pushed back further all the time. Do what you like...even if it means wearing a skirt and using those training wheels.

Rob
Canoeing isn't a sport...its an art. Unfortunately, I am not exactly Michelangelo.

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