Conversions and knee spread

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Bruce Farrenkopf
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Re: Conversions and knee spread

Post by Bruce Farrenkopf » Sun Jul 21, 2013 4:13 pm

The Pyranha Burn (large) is something you should seriously look at. It is 27 inches wide with a FLAT hull. This means you can get your knees LOW and WIDE. I agree that knee position low and wide is critical for boat control in a C1. I have a newly outfitted Burn (having just retired a Pyranha H3 255) and the Burn is the best conversion I have paddled to date!
I have a Robson Finkenmeister and have been frustrated with this boat (I still frequently paddle it) - it is 29 inches wide but due to the hull geometry you can't get your knees wide enough to take full advantage of all that width. The flat hull in the Burn allows this :D .
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Berkshire Jack
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Re: Conversions and knee spread

Post by Berkshire Jack » Mon Jul 22, 2013 1:29 am

GSG, I can comment on this issue in that I own and have converted both a Redline and a Pyranha Burn. In fact, I paddled the Redline today. It is my go-to river runner and surfer and I have been paddling it for about 12 years. I use the Burn for creeks and for big water where I don't want unexpected squirts from the rear end. I'm 5'10 1/2" and just short of 190 lbs. with a 32 inch inseam. Here is the tidbit you might find interesting. :-? I actually find the Redline more comfortable to be in than the Burn, even though my seat is way lower in the Redline. My Redline seat is 6 1/4 in off the floor. I started my Burn seat at 6 1/2 in, but have raised it to about 7 inches, because I couldn't tolerate the lower seat. I have ankle supports in both boats. It may be an artifact of the way I did the conversion, but the Redline is more comfortable, and I am hardly ever in a rush to get out and stretch my legs. I haven't measured it, but it seems that my knees are more spread out in the Burn than in the Redline, which would lead one to believe that it would be more comfortable but that hasn't been the case.

I love the Burn for its predictability, its re-surfacing, its ease of rolling, and go to it whenever the pucker-factor gets larger, but I don't go to it for comfort. It is not bad in that regard. Most of my friends are amazed at how long I can stay put in either boat. It is just less comfortable for my particular body, even with a higher seat and most likely a greater knee spread.

My avatar is me in the Redline.

Good luck with whatever decision you make.
Jack
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Pierre LaPaddelle
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Re: Conversions and knee spread

Post by Pierre LaPaddelle » Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:27 am

Bruce Farrenkopf wrote:The Pyranha Burn (large) . . . best conversion I have paddled to date! . . .
Bruce -- am interested in your comments. You are promoting the L Burn -- if you don't mind the personal question, what's your weight? Thx.
Berkshire Jack wrote: . . . I'm 5'10 1/2" and just short of 190 lbs. . .
And am interested in your comments too, Jack. I note your weight at 190ish. WHICH Burn do you use: The Large, as Bruce suggests, or the Med.? Thx.

I'm asking, because the weight-ranges for Burns are on record, and easily available, but conventional c-boats wisdom suggests "one size larger" for C-1 conversions, especially where gnar or big water is concerned.

Rick
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GSG
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Re: Conversions and knee spread

Post by GSG » Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:13 am

Thank you for your insight Jack, it's much appreciated. I should mention, I'm not looking for a wider boat for comfort reasons, simply stability. I'd like to eventually replace my open boat with a C1 and, as much as I enjoy the Redline, I'm not sure it will give me the confidence I need on tougher rivers.

Curious, you mention you like the Burn for it's easy rolling. I find the Redline VERY easy to roll, is the Burn more so? I'm also curious which size Burn you're in.

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Bruce Farrenkopf
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Re: Conversions and knee spread

Post by Bruce Farrenkopf » Mon Jul 22, 2013 4:26 am

I am 150 lbs, 5'8" with a 32" inseam. Manufacturer weight recommendations for kayaks don't necessarily apply to C1 conversions. Go bigger than you think 8) . Larger volume boats usually are a little wider. This pays off in terms of stability in bigger water (you have a higher center of gravity than a kayaker).

Also, think of the volume of most actual C1 designs - they tend to be higher volume boats.

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Berkshire Jack
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Re: Conversions and knee spread

Post by Berkshire Jack » Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:16 am

Pierre, The Burn I own was bought used and was one of the original versions ( the 2008 vintage), which I have been told has slightly different volumes than the later Burns. It was the Large model for that year, which might be slightly smaller than the large models of subsequent years.

GSG - The Redline is certainly very easy to roll and it is one of the reasons I love it so. But the Burn is no slouch in the rolling department. I guess I mentioned that it was easy to roll, because I was mentally comparing it to my previous creeking boat, the Esquif Taureau, which I found difficult to roll. In my 3 seasons with the Burn, I have only swum out of it once, and that was only after getting worked and window-shaded in a hole to the point of exhaustion and getting head whacked by a rock on a couple of the window shades. I couldn't find my way out of that hole. I got to a point where I was too loose in the outfitting to be effective, it didn't look like a bad swim downstream, and my strength was ebbing away so I pulled the skirt on the 5th window shade and after the second head whack. After that adventure, I memorized some articles on techniques to escape sticky holes. :)

In my experience, your assumption is correct, the Burn is more stable than the Redline, but the Redline surfs better and does squirts for added fun factor.
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Pierre LaPaddelle
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Re: Conversions and knee spread

Post by Pierre LaPaddelle » Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:28 pm

Thanks, Bruce. Thanks, Jack. :)

As a relative noob to C-1ing, I've gotten stuck thinking I should be pushing myself into smaller boats. Sounds like I should relax, and enjoy the comfort and stability of larger hulls. . . :o

Rick
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Re: Conversions and knee spread

Post by yarnellboat » Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:56 pm

Rick, you can get more playful hulls without getting too-small, uncomfortable hulls. You can borrow my Score anytime! It's comfy and wide, but it's got less volume in the ends, especially for my 225lbs, but I find it more comfortable than the Redline. In fact, I should probably keep the Fink & the Score and get rid of the Redline.

Pat.

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Re: Conversions and knee spread

Post by Pierre LaPaddelle » Wed Jul 24, 2013 11:41 pm

yarnellboat wrote:. . .You can borrow my Score anytime! . . . it's got less volume in the ends . . .
For those who think Pat's being generously unselfish, note that he's already seen footage of Rick in a slicy playboat -- specifically a Delirious (00:37). . .

https://vimeo.com/70675371" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; :o
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Re: Conversions and knee spread

Post by yarnellboat » Thu Jul 25, 2013 4:14 am

GSG,

Sounds like you're not looking for this much space or volume (I was because of my big thighs & my 225 lbs), but you're also welcome to borrow my Fink.

By the way Rick, speaking of knee placement, I carved away the extra-tall ankle lifts and put my knees as lowas they can go, which I guess isn't as wide as they could be into that high chine, but they don't feel too narrow. With my high OC-type saddle, lower is better for the legs, or else it would feellike a sit-on-top!

The Score is not a Delerious! Though at my weight I do have trouble keeping the bow on the surface when surfing or even ferrying.

Pat.

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Re: Conversions and knee spread

Post by Larry Horne » Fri Jul 26, 2013 1:11 am

for what it's worth. i don't think it matters very much how wide your knees are as long as it feels good Snug outfitting with your knees held in place is what matters most.
Larry

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Re: Conversions and knee spread

Post by TheKrikkitWars » Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:22 pm

Larry Horne wrote:for what it's worth. i don't think it matters very much how wide your knees are as long as it feels good Snug outfitting with your knees held in place is what matters most.
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