C-Forum

I was once a kayaker (before I saw the light). Something I do miss about my old boats was the length. Athough uncomfortable (and not nearly as buoyant as I'd like), I do miss: their manueverability, how easy they are store/carry/transport, their ability explore smaller creeks. My canoes have been 13' to 15' long which feels like a barge on smaller creeks. You probably won't catch me playboating anytime soon but I'm drawn to the L'edge/ Blackfly/ Stinkeye variety. If all the boats up until recently have been longer, would it be a mistake to consider one of these shorter boats? FYI, I'm 6' tall, 185 lbs, 6% body fat (just kidding on the last part).

John
road_warrior64

For what it's worth... the fastest and cleanest run at OC Nat's last week was by Dana Henry (of MR canoe fame) in a Esquif L'edge. Dana had never paddled an open canoe shorter than 11ft long prior to that. Eli Helbert (L'edge) and Jesse Cook (Option) also made the top ten fastest and cleanest runs with short canoes. Granted the tight course worked well for shorter boats but all things considered the short canoes run drier and can be maneuvered much more quickly. The best selling canoes in the last five years from all the ww-canoe manufacturers have been under 9 feet long and that in my opinion is because they are more fun to paddle and frankly easier to paddle. Hope this helps.

It's good that the L'Edge can do that, but my issue with short boats is that they are not proportional to my height and weight.

Plus, I'm not experiencing any maneuvering disability in my 13' Millbrook.

If I were a little, runty guy, or even just an average-sized guy, I would definitely get a little, runty canoe.

It can be quite a revelation to go from an 11' or 12' canoe (I imagine an even bigger revelation from a 13' to 15' canoe) to something in the 9' range. I remember going from my Ovation to a Phantom and never looking back. Being able to run tighter maneuvers and catch smaller eddies was amazing, fun, and addicting. Old runs became new again. Then moving to the PE Prelude was another revelation, this time for being able to slide more easily off rocks and even use them without worrying about hurting the boat and having to do repairs. The PE-small canoe movement has been great for the sport.

Not that it's for everyone though. I can still understand and take pleasure in the paddling of a long canoe--enjoying its acceleration, glide, and the challenge of maneuvering a longer craft through difficult whitewater. But when it comes to deciding what I'll paddle on a particular day, it's always the Prelude that finds its way to my shoulder.

ezwater wrote:It's good that the L'Edge can do that, but my issue with short boats is that they are not proportional to my height and weight.

Plus, I'm not experiencing any maneuvering disability in my 13' Millbrook.

If I were a little, runty guy, or even just an average-sized guy, I would definitely get a little, runty canoe.

Gary... have you actually been in one of these boats? There's some rather tall/big folks paddling them. The L'edge and Octane 91 are really very voluminous in the center... same as canoes always have been but the ends are just shorter. Granted... you're a big feller but you really need to take one down a river once and give them a shake down.

milkman wrote:Not that it's for everyone though. I can still understand and take pleasure in the paddling of a long canoe--enjoying its acceleration, glide, and the challenge of maneuvering a longer craft through difficult whitewater. But when it comes to deciding what I'll paddle on a particular day, it's always the Prelude that finds its way to my shoulder.

One thing we learned long ago with the sub-9ft canoes was how to use the river to get around more than relying upon glide and boat length to get the job done. Waves and troughs, eddy lines and hydraulics become something you utilize to move around rather than avoid for fear of getting swamped out. I look at 11' canoes now as l-o-n-g boats.

FWIW I'm 6'3" 175 (soaking wet) and I love my Option. I find no problem with space or comfort whether I'm creeking or running higher volume rivers up to class 4. This boat does just about everything and I couldn't be happier!

A further comment. When short skiis were discovered, many people went over to them. But for ski slalom, Super G still takes a longer ski, Giant slalom and somewhat shorter ski, and slalom the shortest ski of all.

I predict that the length and conformation of the OC-1 that wins in slalom will depend on the length and curvature of the arcs of the course. A tight course will favor shorter, more rockered boats. A more open course will favor longer boats.

On the tiny eddy issue, I don't understand it. I get into tiny eddies, and make tight, technical maneuvers, all the time in my longboats. I don't see any need to get in smaller eddies, though if I ran really, really steep creeks, I might feel differently.

We've been all through this with kayak length. They got really short, and they were "planing", while anything long was called "old school." But the real changes were in hull design, not reduced length. Now, river running kayaks are getting a bit longer, and they aren't losing maneuverability. Playboats are just wave and hole riders, and river running is only a means to get to the next playspot. Creek boats don't seem to have gotten microscopically short.

My opinion is that the L'Edge is popular because of its hull design, not its length. That some big people want to paddle it is good for Esquif. But it's too short for me. I don't have the problems it purports to solve, and it doesn't offer anything for the kind of woosy paddling I do.

I am only 5 ' 3 1/2 inches, but very top heavy and heavier than you. The L'Edge and OCtane are excellent choices. I went to shorter boats so I could carry them out of long takeouts, but have not looked back as they are so much fun. The OCtane can be paddled standing up or sitting on the back thwart easily. The L'Edge can too but is less stable than the Octane.

Dana Henry and Eli Helbert could post good times paddling a bathtub with a kitchen broom. For stodgy old rec paddlers like me I personally find that there is something magic about eleven feet in length. Under that and regardless of materials or design, they require more work to get them around. It seems to me that glide decreases exponentially as boat length dips below eleven feet. Weight also is a factor. Once you get it to the water you still have to paddle every ounce of it downstream. And I do a very passable job of reading water. Milt and Frazer certainly could creek in those long Captions. Having said all that, the longest open boat I now own is 9'5" but I sure miss my old Dagger Ocoee and should have kept the Spark until I finished destroying it.

Craig Smerda wrote: The best selling canoes in the last five years from all the ww-canoe manufacturers have been under 9 feet long and that in my opinion is because they are more fun to paddle and frankly easier to paddle. Hope this helps.

Craig I may be mistaken, but is the L'Edge not 9 feet plus 2 inches long, and the Option 8.8? Moving from the Option to the L'Edge I was surprised at how much difference that half a foot made, but it may also have to do with the extra width and the shape of the hull. As someone who has always loved 12 foot canoes, I would say the L'Edge would be a great choice for a 200+ pound guy looking to get in a shorter boat.

There are certain rivers where I still want the 12-foot Outrage, the Cheoah being top of the list. Even running that at higher than normal flows I have had no real need for an electric pump because the Outrage is so fast and dry. It also is really reassuring on bigger drops, and I can whip that big soft-chined mutha into tiny eddies on creeks. But it is all a matter of personal preference. The L'Edge is an amazing canoe that takes about a half grade off any rapid you run simply because it is so forgiving.

I loved loved loved my Viper 11s, and if it wasn't for the material not holding up I probably never would have tried anything else. I now own an Option with the wider thwarts and it carries my 6'3" 220# around just fine.

I never felt like I was lacking any maneuverability in the Viper 11, until I bought a Prelude . The Option is right in between the two and I'm happy. Sure, I don't get the glide and hole punching I used to, but I sure am enjoying not having to patch my boat after each paddle trip.

Obviously you are getting a wide variety of opinion on this thread... ME, I paddle an Option, and got a Spark a few months ago. I love them both, just for different reasons. It would definitely NOT be a mistake to try one of the shorter boats.

Shep

Try the short boats, see if you like them. Assuming that you meant to type 185 (and not 285) you should have no difficulty paddling a myriad of short boats. I like short boats if I'm running little creeks and tiny rivers, where a short boat fits better. (I'm 6'5" and 240). When I paddle something that actually has some WATER in it, I drift back to the long boats...for several reasonable reasons and one silly one. I hate the slow hull-speed of short boats on hard ferries and loooonnnnggg bits of flat water. Those are reasonable reasons. Now for the silly reason. I find short boats to be amazingly unattractive on the water. They're like little bathtubs without the latter's grace notes. That said, they are amazing in the performance category, and at 185, lots of them will fit you without issue.

Rob