C-Forum

Hi all,

I am interested in buying my first canoe. Although I am a somewhat experienced whitewater kayaker, I know very little about the variety of canoes on the market. Think you can help me identify a few potential models of canoe to streamline my search?

I'd like to be able to canoe tandem or solo, so outfitting should be adjustable/interchangeable (I'd imagine that you can do this with most canoes). I intend to use my boat mainly for trips, so I would appreciate a good deal of storage space, as well as stability and speed over flatwater. I would also like to run whitewater rivers, so the boat should be able to maneuver reasonably well in class I-IV whitewater. I imagine that there is a trade-off between whitewater maneuverability and flatwater speed, stability, and storage, but there must be some sort of happy medium...

Any ideas for a solid craft that can do it all?

- Chris

I went through this stage not too long ago, as most new boaters probably do. I think you'll find that any boat that works well for flatwater is only going to be comfortable in light class 3.

Ive been paddling WW for about 8 months and already have 3 boats. I don't regret starting off in a prospector but then I didn't mind the fact that I wanted a proper WW boat after a half dozen trips out.

I concur. For your current desires look at boats for flat water and light class 3. Esquif has the Vertige X, Pocket Canyon. Mohawk 14. Some possibilities.

There really is no happy medium. No matter what you do there will be a lot of unhappiness if you try to do all of that with one canoe.

In the world of whitewater there are few boats that can manage class IV rivers and be outfitted tandem. Fewer still that can be triple outfitted for tandem and solo. None of them are going to be anything but painful to paddle on flat water. Even if we toss the tandem part, getting any one canoe that is going to have any flat water speed is going to realistically max out at class III unless you are truly a skilled canoeist and the boat will be in constant jeopardy of being destroyed.

Something like an Esquif Pocket Canyon makes a nice versatile tripper that is still going to be dog slow in flat water but solo/tandem capable with the right outfitting and able to run (not play much but run) class III with skill and effort. Before someone points it out, Eli (the canoe guru) has run a pocket canyon down the telico ledges which are very easy open class IV, but he's the guru and the telico ledges are anomalus class IV.

Decide what you want and buy a boat that does that well. Better yet, take what you would spend on one new boat and buy several used canoes to cover everything you want to do.

Most of all, smile, canoes are way more fun than kayaks

old town appalachian is my whitewater tripping boat. polling it to paddling class3 with all my camping gear and floatbags. i run the st. john river in that river queen.

You are really asking the impossible. Any boat that is going to be capable of running Class IV whitewater is not going to be remotely "fast".

If you want to use the same boat for both solo and tandem whitewater and solo tripping you are going to have to become inventive with the outfitting. Boats can be set up for either solo or tandem whitewater use but they often have triple pedestals which would take up much of the usable storage space for tripping.

If you could locate a used Dagger Dimension you could set it up as a decent tandem whitewater boat and solo river tripping boat using removable foam pedestals that secure to the canoe with "daisy chain" strips bonded to the hull bottom. That would allow you to remove the tandem pedestals and use one in a central position when paddling solo.

The Dimension is big for solo use (16') but tolerable. While not "fast" it is not hopelessly inefficient on flat water as many whitewater boats are.

Another discontinued canoe is the Blue Hole Starburst, a whitewater tandem which is reasonable on flat water. Nova Craft canoe is currently producing a similar boat. the Moisie.

Well, you can find a canoe that will 'do it all'...but you have to be willing to put in the time to really get good at the game. Your own personal skills are going to be a major ingredient. For example, a Blue Hole Sunburst II (if you're talking about solo boats) will do everything you want, and plenty of people have paddled class IV with them, but it isn't easy. I've seen guys in solo Blue Hole OCA's taking on class V whitewater in some old videos out of the 80's, but I wouldn't recommend it. So if you're looking for a canoe that will be easy to paddle big water in, and also throw up a wake down the flats, AND haul plenty of gear, AND make everything easy for you, well, it doesn't exist right now and it likely never will. If I were you, I'd just resign myself to getting at least two boats.

Rob

As everyone else is saying, such a craft doesn't exist. There is a huge trade off between whitewater and flatwater performance with canoes, more so than with kayaks. Crossover kayaks like the LiquidLogic Remix XP/Stinger XP and whatever the comparable boats from Pyranha, Dagger, etc. are called will do a better job of cross dressing than a canoe will. When you throw in the solo/tandem requirement, it gets even harder.

As far as what's out there, here's what I have experience with.

Tandems

Dagger Caption: 14' whitewater tandem. I have one of these with a triple saddle, and it's great fun either tandem or solo in class 3/4. I've used it on class 1/2/flat river overnights with a kid in front and dry bags instead of float bags. It's passable for that, as long as you're ok with slogging through the flats and have good enough boat control to deal with wind blowing it all around. I would rather whack myself in the head with a 2x4 than paddle this boat for any distance on a lake. If you are a beginner canoeist, it will feel twitchy as a tandem, stable as a solo. Until you learn good strokes, you'll zig zag all over on the flats and get flushed through rapids like a turd in a toilet bowl. Actually, that last caveat applies to any WW canoe. Other boats in this class still in production: Mohawk Probe 14, Esquif Vertige X, Esquif Blast.

Dagger Dimension: 16' whitewater tandem tripper. I have one of these and used to have it triple outfitted, too. Stable as a tandem, insanely stable as a solo. Tandem with a team that knows what it's doing, this boat will style big water class 4. On easier water, it'll be faster than a Caption-style boat, but it'll still plow through flat sections rather than glide and require constant attention to keep it straight. As a solo, it's usable, but it's a lot of boat to move around, so it requires advance planning and lots of power - more like driving a raft than a canoe. I had the triple saddle in mine for running easy whitewater with my kids when they were too small to do anything other than be passengers. It was great for that. Other boats in this class still in production: Esquif Canyon, Pocket Canyon.

Dagger (now Mad River) Legend: I have used both the 15 and 16 foot versions of these a few times for easy moving water and have soloed them briefly just for the heck of it. I once ran into a guy on the Casselman (class 2/3) who had a 15 foot Legend outfitted as a dedicated solo, but he was a big guy. Personally, I think soloing a Legend is not really worth the effort. As a tandem, it's a versatile design. It's acceptable on flat water and, with a skilled crew, can handle conservative lines in class 3. Other boats in this class still in production: Old Town Appalachian.

Solos (none of these are suitable as tandems, except as a stunt)

Sub 10' WW solos: Could probably stuff some minimalist tripping gear in one of these, but you would lose your mind on the flat/easy stuff and have a tough time getting gear past the bulkhead saddle, unless you got rid of the float bags. But if you're on water where you could get away with not running bags, then you bought the wrong boat .

Just about any 11-13 foot WW solo: You could "use" any of these for easy solo river trips. Just be prepared for slow progress in the flat sections and a learning curve for boat control if you're new to canoeing.

Wenonah Argosy - 15' moving water solo. Decent speed on flatwater and will track ok if you have a good forward stroke. Not particularly stable. Maneuvers fine for flat and easy class 1/2. I could probably get mine down a class 3 as a stunt, but it wouldn't be any fun. Other boats in this class still in production: Mad River Freedom Solo (used to be Guide), Mohawk Odyssey, and a bunch of models from smaller, high end boutique makers.

I'm sure there are other boats out there, too. The above are just the ones I have paddled personally...

OK,

I've thought about it some more. There is ONE canoe I can think of that IF you were willing to put in the training, could do everything you ask of it. It wouldn't be easy, but as I sat here thinking "What if I had to have just ONE canoe to do everything he wants to do in; which boat in my fleet would I choose" I came up with an answer. Keep in mind, many folks on here will disagree with me! But if I had to pick just one boat for solo, tandem, whitewater, tripping, occasional camping, and whatever else...I would get a Wenonah Rouge and triple-outfit it. As a solo boat, it will be...interesting...as its fairly wide in the center (35") but folks have soloed wider craft. The Rouge is without question the fastest whitewater canoe I have ever paddled, (I doubt there is a faster whitewater canoe in the world, frankly) which is no surprise since Wenonah makes it. I've met and paddled with those guys from time to time, and for them, the idea of NOT making a canoe (regardless of its intended use) as FAST and as LIGHT as possible is a totally alien concept. And keep in mind that what you have asked requires a LOT of compromise, which I why I have suggested the Rouge. I've done some pretty heavy class III in a Rouge (tandem) and its a great boat as long as you keep in mind that every line you choose, and every problem you face must be beaten with the boat's biggest saving grace, which is its speed. This is alien to most modern whitewater canoeing, as most of us like to rely on agility. Lines though whitewater that would be disregarded were I in another boat, i.e. cross-river ferries and back-ferries in ludicrous speed water, planning to launch the canoe OVER a huge, sticky, ledge so that the whole canoe lands beyond the boil line, (as opposed to trying to boof it near the edge) and other such maneuvers that are difficult in other canoes due to their lack of hull-speed become your bread and butter in a Rouge. This, of course, comes with a compromise, too. The Rouge will NOT turn with some of the other tandem boats that have been suggested (Caption, Synergy, Vertige X, etc), but it will totally blow them away in acceleration and top speed. So, there you have it, were I put in the same position as you, and WERE FORCED TO CHOOSE ONLY ONE BOAT TO DO ALL OF IT, I would customize my Rouge for solo/tandem.
I still think you should get two boats, though.

Rob

Good suggestions thus far... but honestly the O.P. didn't give enough information about the magical unicorn canoe's intended use. Remember... people used to run skin on frame canoes loaded with beaver pelts and canvas tents down whitewater long before the discovery of Aluminum.

Step back in time to 1984... http://www.nfb.ca/film/waterwalker/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Esquif Pocket Canyon is a great little boat... sort've a Jeep if you will. Ideal 100% of the time? Nope... but a great little boat no less. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmL00RuV ... UAQz7G-ELM" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The way I see it, every canoeist needs at least five boats: OC1 for whitewater, OC2 for whitewater, C1, raft/shredder, and a flat water boat.

what Matt said except add a fast ww boat for slalom. 6, no fewer than 6.

Yeah, but then you need a few canoes to loan to friends and get newbies into the sport. I'd say 12 canoes, maybe 13.

my mad river ME is wicked fast. if you got a strong j-stroke she does ok on flat water. in class4 wicked fast canoe.

Hmmm, I see that my desire to do it all with one boat might be a bit overly-ambitious, so I'm going to change my strategy. I am more interested in going on flatwater trips than I am in paddling whitewater, so I would like a boat with stability and storage space. The ability to handle some light whitewater is desirable so that I can at least try running some class I-II. I have heard that the presence of a keel is basically a dealbreaker for running rapids - is this true, and are there any other design factors that would affect a boat's performance in turbulent water?
What is everybody's favorite river tripper? Thanks all, for the informative and enthusiastic responses.

Chris