C-Forum

I know there is something fundamentally wrong with my roll technique, because boats that other people claim to be easy to roll (like the L'edge and Option) are nearly impossible for me to roll. I used to have a 100% flatwater and about 60% combat roll in a Mohawk Probe. When I switched to an Outrage, I went to 50% flatwater and 10% combat. Even when do I hit a roll, the boat comes up insanely slowly (slower than other open boaters I have watched roll) and always hangs near the end. Also, if it helps, I am much more likely to blow a roll if I flip with a boat full of water than if I start with an empty boat.

Here's a video in hopes someone will spot something obviously wrong in my body positioning, etc. I left the t-rescue in at the end because I think it confirms that my snap is weird - you can see me do it wrong at first, and then right. I left the original audio in because I thought the crying was sadly appropriate .

http://youtu.be/gCRHNjKQv74

Just focus on more of a snap. The rest of your roll is fine. Drive with your knee. The snap will help a ton. I think of trying to hit my onside knee with my forehead when I roll.

It also looks like you are starting the roll a little close to the stern. It won't kill the roll. Really you can roll from any position as long as your paddle is up. You will just get a bit more power if you are perpendicular to the boat though. It will make it easier getting your first couple rolls.

Timing is also important. I think this is the ideal progression. You are almost there.
1. Flip over
2. Bring paddle to rolling position, winding up while doing so. You do a great job of this. The boat starts rolling before your paddle does anything
3. Hip snap, drive with your knees. You will notice that your paddle starts to move down. Use the resistance of your paddle to accelerate your body back in the boat. Head out last.

Here is a video of me rolling... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adyVwi3nOpk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
My roll has gotten quite a bit faster since then. But fundamentally it is all there.

Another video... Full rolls happen around 2:10. Not the best because I had hurt my shoulder (reason I was moving my hand around). Backdeck rolls happen around 3:20. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=me-AesToBIo" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hope this helps!
Dave

Sorry for all the edits I keep adding things haha.

- One thing that I immediately saw here.. your upper/handle arm hangs up inside the boat, but you want your elbow to swing over the upper gunwale. Think about wiping your nose on low gunwale, airbag, high gunnel until the boat comes up, while the paddle handle precedes that sequence.

- If you have problems with moving your elobow out of the boat, try squeezing it back alongside your PFD first then shoving it out again.

- Never push on your paddle. This will work against your roll. Your paddle does push down by your torso folding, but you shouldn't be pushing it with your arms at all. This is your mind playing tricks on you, if you do.. but if you push down on the paddle you install a motion that goes against your upper body folding down and your knees pulling / pushing the boat up in a rolling motion.. thus that force is reduced to where you can't get up. It's counterintuitive and why most rolls fail, really.. but you have the head down part worked out so you should get through that as well!

- Also, go and train in the flatwater with someone helping you at the boat, not the paddle, to come up. Putting their hands on your boat, they can give you great feedback about when what power is applied - with or without helping

- I can't see your setup angle, but never get past 90° and avoid anything past 80°, rather stay between 70-80° because that gives the best range of motion and force application from the legs for a hip snap

Good luck!

Looking at your video again, I see another thing that does apparently prevent your roll here. You start the swinging motion too soon! - Folding "down" with your upper body and swinging your head over the boat are more like two sequenced, seperate motions.
- Timing is crucial here, if you swing too early what happens is the application of hip snap stops.. which stops the boat from rolling further. if you concentrate on just the hip snap/pull-up/kick down knee motion, it will eventually pull your upper body over the gunwales when there is no more water to wind up onto. Think about a toilet paper roll that is unwound and winds up.. the boat is rolling under you, and you want the roll to wind you all the way up!

So, don't even think about the swing, because it will come naturally! Look down until you are looking at the side of your boat, then swing over, but don't think about what your upper body does at that point..

Happy practice! I'll go and practice myself later, see if I can get some video, too...

Its a low brace roll, so do it like you low brace. You know, HARD.
That's all I got. But like what has been said get you elbow out and go gunnel to gunnel with your head.
Rand

Thanks, guys. I'm going to try all of those suggestions.

I do notice a LOT of resistance against my knee drive. Almost feels like someone is holding onto the boat, fighting my hip rotation, especially during the second half of the rotation. Perhaps that's caused by sweeping forward too soon. I think that would send most of my muscle force in the wrong direction. Certainly, as hard as the outfitting is biting into my onside knee when I drive my hips, the boat should be rotating way faster than it does. Or maybe that's happening because of my upper arm being in the wrong spot, so that at some point the paddle is actually working against me.

For the arm issue, where should I be holding my t-grip arm/elbow to avoid getting it stuck inside the boat? Best I can tell, right now when I am curled out/up at the start, I have my top hand on my forehead and the t-grip about even with my gut but levered outward - very much like what is shown in the Foote and Ford roll demonstrations.

Try thinking in terms of knee pressure instead of hip rotation. Use the knees to pull the boat under your head. Think, "I'm going to smack my face against the side of the boat" or "I'm going to knee myself in the face". The hips will rotate on their own as the boat comes under you. This is just another way of explaining what mahyongg suggested.

I agree with others that you are swinging back too far toward the stern - aim for 90 degrees or less.

It does look like you're stalling when you transition to the forward sweep.

Try leading the forward sweep with your hands. Stated slightly differently, use your arms to sweep and not your upper body. Pull the t-grip low across your torso from one gunwale to the other - more or less perpendicular to the boat. Lift the t-grip elbow over and past the far gunwale. The shoulders (and thus the head) follow and eventually overtake the hands. Try to kiss the far gunwale and/or swing your head far enough to see water on the far side of the boat. Pulling the blade through the water this way gives you a little something to push against so use it to re-apply the knee pressure. As Rand C1 said, "it's a low brace roll" and the last part of this maneuver is, in every sense of the word, a low brace recovery - albeit from a very extreme position. Practice low braces prior to trying to roll.

It looks to me like your arms/hands/paddle position is just fine at the start. You just need to lift the arm/elbow over the far gunwale instead of leaving it tucked up next to your body.

Dave

dafriend wrote:It looks to me like your arms/hands/paddle position is just fine at the start. You just need to lift the arm/elbow over the far gunwale instead of leaving it tucked up next to your body.

Dave

Thank you. That helps me visualize things better.

I know that's a bigger boat, but try for more "pop" a the start of the roll - yours looks slow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WU2I24rerQ8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I think your might be starting with the paddle a bit beyond 90 degrees to the boat as well...

One other thing - some people find returning to some practice tools helpful, even when they can already roll well, and regularly do it. In your case, it might help you to grab a piece of foam - I'm talking the hard insulating foam for houses or something like that (styrofoam is usually a little too brittle.. ), leaving the paddle out of the whole deal for some tries. It can help you focus better on the leg work and forget about what's going on with your paddle for a while. If you practice with foam, choose a piece that's big enough to lay down on it with your arms angled out from your forehead - elbows should just be resting on the foam, forming a triangle with your hands next to your forehead. Then concentrate on sweeping your upper body off the foamie without putting too much pressure in it and the winding up of the boat / rolling under you.
The advantage of a foamie over a solid piece of dock or similar is that it moves with you, keeping the realistic motion of the boat that really, instead of you rolling up, rolls towards and under you.

Btw. I also think that resistance you feel is what you think it is - your instincts working against you by trying to push up your upper body when you roll. What happens though is that you just slow your hip movement and dig in your paddle, which in turn makes it harder to come up later in the sweep. Oh btw, while you DO sweep, you only sweep by applying force with your forehead, not with your arms. If your shoulders hurt at all, you know you put too much force in your arms, too..

Hope that helps - still. Actually, it does help ME because it forces me to visualize what happens during the roll and not forget it. I just learned how to roll and currently have a 70% flatwater roll in my spark, closer to 90 in my big dog. Funny thing is, if I dive in on my offside, have to work myself to the other side of the boat and do kind of a reverse sweep setup, I always roll the Spark up while only so-so on my onside.. who knows why, guess it's a timing thing.

Cheers!

Jan

Your roll looks good to me.


Rolling isn't complicated- Step 1. Right the boat with your lower body. Step 2. Sweep you upper body in low in across the gunnels. Snap-sweep.

If you were more aggressive with either of these, you d be upright (I agree with Rand).

The angle at which you start your sweep, etc. can help but it's not critical so put your protractor away. Look at DaveE back deck roll video if you need proof.

A little low brace practice wouldn't hurt.

If you're feeling resistance to rolling the hull with your thighs & knees, you might want to check your outfitting and add some foam wedges on the sidewall or adjust your straps - if your kness are slopping around at all, you'll be loosing some of that energy or "snapiness" when it really counts.

Pat.

ian,

while rolling isn't technically complicated, most of what people pointed out here is still valid and important. Some boats also take it better than others, but if you're in a complicated place for a roll, all components better line up!

my rolled boats so far - in order: "simple to roll" first

- Ion
- Force
- Spanish Fly with suicidal strap
- Spanish Fly w/out strap
- Spark
- wenonah rendezvous
- mohawk viper 12

Outfitting is important, you need to be able to transfer force to your boat and take some of it back also.. later.
But most important is not working against yourself (subconsciously). That's what most of the advice here targets..
and while some people might get away with something else, in general the range of motion of humans and their ability to apply force better with some smaller angle between legs and torso demands a certain angle between upper body and boat.. why make it harder for yourself than it needs to be, and won't work in difficult water...

cheers!

jan

mahyongg wrote:
while rolling isn't technically complicated, most of what people pointed out here is still valid and important. Some boats also take it better than others, but if you're in a complicated place for a roll, all components better line up!

He's not in a complicated place (unless you re talking about this thread). There are as many different ways of rolling as there are people rolling and lots of ugly rolls are successful. Certain things may help but specific little details don't ALL have to line up.

As a former Ohioan, I couldn't help but notice your post. The main thing you are not doing right is that you are not finishing the roll. You should be doing what you are doing at the end when you had to use the kayak for a bow rescue. At that point, you continued to roll up with your hips. Since you will not have the kayak to push against you should continue to sweep/push against your paddle while also keeping your head down. You can add a grunt at the end of the roll like you are in the weight room, lifting a heavy weight, for emphasis. I know people might laugh at this, but it kind of works, especially if you are pissed off after not making your roll.

Another possible issue, probably less important, comes at the beginning of the roll. There is no effort to get yourself into position prior to the roll. You are not aligning yourself square to the boat. You are not trying to get your paddle shaft vertical. There is also a windup of the boat in the opposite direction of the roll which helps to increase your hip snap that it does not appear that you are doing.

Hope this helps.