C-Forum

Hey y'all, another question on rolling technique/ troubleshooting here. So, I've got my pool roll pretty much near 100% now (many thousands of thanks to all those who've contributed to the countless threads on the topic), but I've been encountering a problem about 1/4 of the time while trying to execute a "full roll", i.e. going over to the off-side and rolling all the way around. There are a few times where I set up and go over toward my offside, and rather than roll fully upside down and allowing me to access the surface with my paddle, the boat just stalls out with the offside gunwale buried in the water and my head and body being the lowest in the water. Has anyone else ever encountered this? Is it a fairly common phenomena, or am I just a kook? I'll try to attach a short clip of what I'm talking about as soon as I figure out how FWIW, I paddle an Option, second gen. Thanks in advance for any help!

Use paddle strokes while underwater to adjust your body and boat to a good place for rolling. Reach where you want to be and draw/pry/skull the paddle to get yourself there. It will be useful later on for rolling in weird spots.

For your situation, the easiest solution I think would be to lean back so your back is on the stern airbag. This makes sure your weight is centered. Skull the paddle blade to the your roll setup position and go for it. Practice a bunch and you will eventually get used to positioning yourself however you want while upside down.

Thanks Dave! Here's a short clip of what I'm dealing with:

https://vimeo.com/83002123" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I guess the problem is that when the boat stalls out like that I get kinda lost for a minute and can't figure out where I am. I'll try sculling/ drawing the next time I'm at the pool.

No problem!

Good video. I've definitely had the same problem before when paddling a friends shortened l'edge. The exaggerated rocker seemed to have some effect. Your definitely right that it was confusing and disorienting to get hung up like that. I'm not entirely sure what I did, but it took a stroke or two to pull my weight under the boat.

Your paddle is already on the right side of the boat which is great. Try to get it as far from you as possible for leverage then pull your weight under the boat with it. It will probably feel like some weird high brace thing.

Alternatively, hit the back deck. The centered weight bring the boat closer to where you want it, making it easier to sweep your paddle to the setup position... If you get quick at this, the sweep will initiate the roll and pretty much look like a canoe back deck roll.

I would still definitely recommend figuring out underwater stokes. You will be happy if you get hung up in a weird eddy line or on some rocks or something.

Hope this helps!

Thanks for sharing the video. I got to see what I suspected. All that flotation in the boat is keeping the boat's pivot point (the longitudinal axis the boat rotates/rolls on) high above the surface of the water--front and back areas filled with air bags and mini cell packed against the sides. It's not a bad thing but can really make the rolling much harder. An analogy would be trying to lie on top of a large, inflated beach ball (something I try to do in the summer ). The high degree of curvature of the gunwales, stem-to-stern, makes it hard to completely get the boat all the way around for a 360-degree roll too.

The easiest thing to do while you are in the pool is to deflate the airbags so the boat's axis lowers closer to the water surface. That should also enable a better 360-degree roll when you want to do that. See how that helps for now.

One advantage c-1s have over kayaks is that (with proper set up) the paddler's body tends to come out to the side and up to the surface, so that the paddler's head (sometimes needed for decisions) is not as exposed to blows as the current drives the boat/paddler assemblage over rocks.

If you find that your boat insists on being absolutely upside down, and that your head, body, etc., don't float out to the side (this refers more to open boats), then you should re-distribute your boat flotation to give the boat a better attitude.

And if your body doesn't come readily out to the side, consider a different PFD. There are still a few PFDs on the market with 22 pounds of flotation. At least I hope there are. I have an old Stohlquist Max with 22 pounds of flotation. I have a new Stohlquist that has extra flotation, but I don't know if it's as much as 22.

Stay away from old, multi-tube PFDs. They pick up too much water under their tubes. That may be OK for swimming, but when you try to roll, you may be raising several pounds of water inside your PFD. Modern, slab style PFDs stay close to the body with little space for water to intrude.

I'm one of those who doesn't think that rolling OC-1s is a good investment. I've been paddling OC-1 almost exclusively since 2000, and there has been no occasion when rolling was the best option. I'm with Louie. Get it to the bank and dump it out. If you are paddling stuff where you have a high probability of swamping or flipping, and where getting to the bank is not practical, go get a good c-1. They don't swamp, and while they may flip a bit more often, they are much easier to roll.

ezwater wrote:
I'm one of those who doesn't think that rolling OC-1s is a good investment. I've been paddling OC-1 almost exclusively since 2000, and there has been no occasion when rolling was the best option. I'm with Louie. Get it to the bank and dump it out.

PREPOSTEROUS, MAN!

Thanks for the tips so far everyone.
Kneal- do you think I should run with softer bags? I understand that running "full" flotation can be a bit of a double-edged sword (not allowing the boat to fully swamp, but also potentially making it harder to roll given higher float while upside-down) but in an ideal world of running deep splashy rivers I would think that I'd try to keep my boat as dry as possible. Luckily, the Option doesn't paddle too poorly with a bit of water on board. Also, I don't have the cockpit fully foamed out like some other boaters do. I don't even have hip pads. I'm running it straight factory minus some tweaks for my fit. plenty of space in there for water to splash about in. I guess maybe it's a topic for another thread, "How full do you inflate your bags?" Bear in mind that this "stalling out" only happens about 20% of the time when rolling. All other times she comes around just fine.

Ezwater- I don't think my pfd is to blame. I wear a rescue vest with heaps of float. I'm quite tall and thin (6'3", 175lbs) and I've never had any issues keeping my head high and dry. I also never knew that there was a school of thought that actually PREFERRED to exit the boat INSTEAD of rolling. To be perfectly honest, this kinda blows my mind, but maybe this is more of a function of the geology of rivers that different folks are running. There are a lot of really fun, awesome runs here in the Sierras that are super safe, until you find yourself outside your boat. Sieves suck, so I'll do what I can to stay in my boat.

I really appreciate the input so far, so please keep it coming. Thanks!

truckeeboater wrote:Do you think I should run with softer bags? I understand that running "full" flotation can be a bit of a double-edged sword (not allowing the boat to fully swamp, but also potentially making it harder to roll given higher float while upside-down) but in an ideal world of running deep splashy rivers I would think that I'd try to keep my boat as dry as possible.

I personally wouldn't take away any flotation. Everyone that I paddle with uses full air bags. More flotation means that the boat will sit higher when upside down, rolling up with less water.

truckeeboater wrote: I also never knew that there was a school of thought that actually PREFERRED to exit the boat INSTEAD of rolling. To be perfectly honest, this kinda blows my mind, but maybe this is more of a function of the geology of rivers that different folks are running.

It blows my mind too. I don't see any logical thought behind it. Rolling takes so much less effort than swimming. Also, why expose yourself to river hazards when you can just roll.


Don't worry about looking into other PFDs. The PFD shown in your video is great. High float vests will just make your problem worse and make swimming difficult. Proper paddling rescue vests are low flotation.

I don't think I'd worry about how your bags are inflated - they look reasonably close to gunwale level. I'd think about trying an offside roll as your boat is almost up on that side!

I think the "no roll school", if there actually is such a thing, is found on shallow rocky rivers. A slow roll in some cases will get you more bruises than a quick exit and self rescue, but that is very situation dependent.

Big, not 100% bagged out boats allow you to "turtle" if you leave the space in front of the saddle free - small boats and bulkheads rule that out.

My point right now is to deflate your bags so the boat sits lower in the water while you're practicing your rolling in the pool. Get used to the rolling mechanics with the boat lower in the water (lowering the boat's rolling axis). Once the technique is there, certainly inflate the bags and try it again. You want to run rapids with the bags fully inflated--no question about that.

Walsh's link to Philip Prince's instructional video is great.

Consider Adding a larger pass thru tube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrhRjuHDjJQ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This one really helped me. I don't think anybody has posted it yet...there's obviously a lot of opinions out there about rolling.